Posted on 09/09/2012 3:08:47 PM PDT by CHRISTIAN DIARIST
A recent sermon by Pastor David Jeremiah has been weighing heavily upon my mind.
He recounted the true-life story of contemporaries William Franklin Graham and Charles Templeton, up and coming young evangelists who began their ministries during the 1940s.
Most thought Templeton, rather than Graham, would achieve greater things in the name of the Lord.
But, in fact, the former fell away from his Christian faith – actually declaring himself atheist – while the great Billy Graham remained a good and faithful servant of the Most High.
Pastor Jeremiah shared the story of Graham and Templeton to remind his congregation (as well as those of us watching on TV or listening on radio) that, as Christ followers, “we are expected to run with endurance the race that has been set before us.”
Yet, in his next breath, the pastor said that, while Templeton did not finish the race he started, he still has a place in God’s kingdom.
Because, said Pastor Jeremiah, it mattered not that Templeton renounced the Christian faith he espoused as a young evangelist, nor that he went to his grave an atheist, since he one time gave his life to the Lord, he’s secure for all eternity.
That is the doctrine preached in many, if not most Christian churches, with which I have the most difficulty:
Once saved, always saved.
No matter how it is preached, or by whom it is preached – including Pastor Jeremiah, whom I greatly admire – I am unable to accept it.
For why would the Apostle Paul encourage us to run with endurance the race set before us if simply answering an altar call one Sunday gives us a lifetime Get Out Of Hell Free card?
And speaking of the Apostle Paul, suppose his life story was reversed. Suppose he spent the first part of his adult life preaching Christ’s salvation, but the second part persecuting Christians.
Would he be today in Paradise?
I think not.
“For it is impossible,” the Scripture warns, “for those who were once enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”
The takeaway from that Scripture is that it is not enough to give our lives to Christ for a season, then fall away from our faith. We do not have a free pass to sin as it pleases us. We are expected to abide in Christ, as He abides in us; to live our lives according to his Word.
So those of us who believe ourselves saved should not be deceived. The Scripture warns, “Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”
Those who abide in such sins will spend eternity separated from their Creator. Even if they were one-time Christ followers, like Charles Templeton.
and the Greek analyzed:
http://biblos.com/john/3-16.htm
I'm right, you're wrong, have a nice day
There is no reincarnation.
Both of you are arguing past the text.
Of course I am. Are you actually saying you are confused about my position? And if you're so confident of yours, why do you have to use the degrading word "tout"? Are YOU "touting" YOUR Christian tenets? If they are Protestant, you do understand that Catholics believe they are serious enough mistakes to land you in hell? If they are Catholic, do you understand that Protestants believe they are serious enough mistakes to land you in hell? When - no matter how you look at it - over a billion self-professed Christians deeply believe YOU are going to hell for your erroneous interpretations of Christ's teaching, who are you to judge mine?
wideawake : Which "original Christian believers" in reincarnation were killed by other Christians to shut them up? Would be very interested in seeing a reference for that.
Well, a lot of them were called Gnostics, but they were declared heretics, and hunted down and butchered by the hundred of thousands, if not millions. And then there were Celtic peoples who received the Gospel and interpreted it by their own spiritual traditions, but they were declared barbarians, witches and heretics, and hunted and butchered by the hundreds of thousands, if not millions. Of course, there are also the pre-biblical Christians, those arguably closest to the actual teachings of Christ, who were known to include reincarnation in their Christian belief systems, but they too were declared heretics and hunted down and murdered.
Are you starting to see a pattern here? Because it's very clear to me. And i's also clear that unless you're going to declare my Christian historical sources heretical, you don't have a chance of saying these reincarnational interpretations of Christian teachings didn't exist. Fortunately for me, though, after declaring me heretical you aren't able to take the next historical step.
Oh and by the way, the same goes for you as for Future Snake Eater - just remember that while you're dismissing me as heretical, half of the Christian world is declaring the same thing against you, no matter what side of the "Christian" fence you fall on.
chesley: Reincarnation?? Tell me, if your soul, or whatever, comes back and remembers NOTHING of your previous life, aren’t YOU as good as dead? And if what you have to look forward to is the dissolution of self into the infinite all, what is the point? Belief in death being nonexistence makes more sense, and seems preferable to me.
Or whatever? So you, as a Christian, don't believe you have a soul? Then what exactly is left of you when you die? And if you DO have a soul - or whatever - once you die, isn't it as good as dead? So how can you meet Jesus, or God, or go to heaven, if you don't exist after death? Oh, you DO have a soul? Then if you meet God, what do you do - shake hands? Is God the infinite all? Would you rather stay separate from God, or dissolve into Him? Would you rather see everything with the eyes of God, hear everything with the ears of God, touch everything with the touch of God, and love everything with the love of God, experiencing God in every conscious and even unconscious moment, forever? Or do you imagine heaven is some kind of ultimate Bahamas resort, perched on top of clouds, and God is the general manager?
And in the end, what does it matter to me what you believe? After all, you're a Christian, right? So you're eather Catholic or Protestant, and that means, just like wideawake and Future Snake Eater, half the Christian world believes you are so incredibly, seriously wrong in what you believe about Jesus Christ, that you are going to hell for it.
What amazes me about Christians, though, is that virtually all of them believe they are not responsible for their own beliefs - that their church denomination is! They will actually accuse each other of the "blasphemy" of "personal opinion," never acknowledging that their choise of church IS their personal opinion! It's even happened on this very thread! It happens all the time! But these are the people who want to discuss Christian morality, and opine about people's souls being worthy or heaven or hell!
Tellya what, folks - you want to thump those Bibles and say interpretation is everything, and deviating from the Word with personal interpretation is blasphemy, and if God wanted you to think and experience Him for your own, then, well, He would have given you a brain and a heart and a soul? Okay, then let me tell you what the ENTIRETY of my Christian faith consists of - ALL of it. It's the New Testament of the New Testament - not by my interpretation, but the exact claims of a guy named Jesus:
It's this: “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” - John 13:34-35
And if that's heresy, then so be it.
P.S. You'll notice it doesn't say anything whatsoever about reincarnation - either way.
Oh FCOL, I don't blame you for dropping Protestantism and rejecting sola scriptura (which is obviously a false and dangerous concept), but to assert that the Catholic Church today teaches exactly what it taught in "33ad" (or whenever it actually started) is pure unadulterated malarkey. Do you really believe that the beliefs of today's Catholic bishops is identical to the beliefs of Bellarmine?
Even as a Catholic I knew that the post Vatican II church is very different from the one that preceded it.
No, I’m arguing that John 3:16 is irrelevant to a discussion of whether once saved always saved is a valid doctrine. John 3:16 does not address the issue and any twisting of it to pretend it does relies on reading into the text a great deal that is just not there.
I do not know anyone who believes they can sin unrepentantly and still think they are going to heaven. I know of no denomination that teaches a doctrine of unrepentant sinning is okay.
Well, yeah. God did the miracles through the disciples.
you could sit in the church all of you life, hear gospel preached and taught, sit under the convicting and convincing influence of the Holy Spirit, partake of His presence, sense His convicting influence, be enlightened to the truth of God’s word, and never be saved. Churches today are filled with people who have been attending for years, who profess Christ, but have never truly repented and invited them to become their Lord & Savior. Hence, Jesus said some on the last day would say, “Lord, Lord, and He will say, “depart from Me, I never knew you.” They professed to know Christ, professed to have the Spirit, professed to be enlightened by the Spirit, professed to be partakers of the Spirit, but were deceived and misled. They never really new Him, hence, they were never really saved. “They worship with their lips, but their hearts are far from him.” Man believes with the heart. And when he truly believes with the heart, there will be a supernatural transformation performed by God that can never be reversed.
The Latin text you gave is the Vulgate not of John 3:16, but of 1 John 3:16.
We get into a Mobius strip of an circular argument when we get into predestination vs. foreknowledge. The Bible infers we always have a choice even if the language suggests different. God hardened Pharoahs heart is an example. I’m better off worrying about MY soul and leave Judas’s to Gods Judgement.
Oops.
If you profess to be saved, and believe you can just sin unrepentently against God, in all liklihood you are probably not saved. Those who are truly saved possess a divine nature which has a desire to obey God in all things, even though we all fail due to our unredeemed flesh. “The mind of Christ” (which all true born again believers have), simply does not believe and behave in a habitually sinful manner. Also, we must remember, if we are truly His, God is going to discipline us accordingly as He sees fit. Discipline and condemnation are two different issues.
I was going to say “You can say that again” but I see you already have. )
John 10:27-30 (KJV)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
Heres' John 3:16 with my most humble apologies :
sic enim dilexit Deus mundum ut Filium suum unigenitum daret ut omnis qui credit in eum non pereat sed habeat vitam aeternam
Thank you for being, well, wide awake.
and that’s a fact!!!
Those who believe the power of God is unable to keep them saved, do not understand the true nature of salvation. I spent 10 years in the Assemblies of God, graduated with a BA in Bible from and A/G college, and later left the A/G due to doctrinal issues, one being the teaching that God’s grace and power were sufficient enough to save us, but not keep us. My Father loves me, He may discipline me, but He will never condemn me. I was born of my earthly father, and I can never cease being his son. I was born of my Heavenly Father, born from above, born again, and “nothing can separate me from His love.” He loves me, and He will keep me. Thank God, I no longer have to live my life in fear and wondering, did I cross the line? “Perfect love cast out fear.”
In terms of the peoples who spoke Celtic languages, they adhered to Nicene Christianity and there is no hint of their theologians teaching reincarnation - this claim appears to be made up of whole cloth. A reference here would be extremely helpful as well.
I agree with this post: namely that John 3:16 does not resolve the question of OSAS at all, and that it cannot be cited as a prooftext for it.
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