Skip to comments.Why Did the Jews Reject Christianity?
Posted on 08/12/2012 9:20:00 PM PDT by Phinneous
A Jewish class on why Jews do not accept Christianity. I post for Jews to self-educate and for Christians to understand the Jewish point of view--not that it matters (that they do.)
A lot of us look forward to this discussion, I hope it brings a lot of high quality posts.
Many of us would like to learn about this history and relationship.
They weren’t chosen by God to accept Jesus. They relied on circumcision of the flesh. Christians are the true sons of Abraham. By faith are ye saved.
I am interested in this, as well.
I had always heard that the Jews ached for a savior; they got one, but he was a teacher and very humble.
They wanted a fighter; a warrior on a white horse to extinguish their enemies.
Patience will bring them the savior they wanted very soon-and the One we want, as well.
13 See, my servant will act wisely[b];
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him[c]
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness
15 so he will sprinkle many nations,[d]
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.
You’ll have to listen :) If there is a yiddish or Hebrew word he doesn’t translate feel free to ask me. For Jews, JC does not meet the criteria of Savior (Messiah.) That’s the side point of this class. Mainly it deals with who is/isn’t a prophet. However, Jews await the Messiah and pray for his coming every day (thrice!)
How recently has it been that Evangelical Christians took up the cause of modern day Israel being a land for Jewish people? I have some acquaintances who claim that it’s actually a modern phenomenon, and not something that goes back more than 25 years or so. I found that hard to believe, as I thought evangelicals had always thought that way.
To me this is THE question, to me, this is the biggest human based question of Jewish and Christian existence.
The unanswered question of, Gods Jewish children, and Gods Christian children, and why they are apart.
I don’t know theology, so if my phrasing is badly chosen, just try to understand what I am asking as a layman who doesn’t know the language, nor if there is any baggage connected to the way I asked it.
Answer; Because... not all Jews are Jews....
Just the same as not all christians are christians
nor catholics, catholics.. or Baptists, Baptists..
Not all muslims are muslims either..
Heck today not all women are women nor men, men...
Considering the timeline of Daniel’s 70 Weeks have long come and gone (part of the reason why the Jews were always expecting a Messiah around the time of Jesus), the Jews can pray thrice a day for a Messiah all they want and still never have an answer.
Israel had been a great nation. The idea of forgetting about this world or relegating earthly concerns to secondary importance and simply accepting Roman dominion was alien to them.
There may be thousands of reasons, but I often refer to one: Egypt. Kings of Egypt were supposed to be half-man half-divinity walking deities. Jews weren’t having none of that, not again, not after “that incident”.
“’The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.”’
Interesting. I just posted this on an overheated political thread.
Ryan is a good man, but does not redeem the abortionist/homosexualist statist Romney
Sunday, August 12, 2012 7:59:19 PM · 2,223 of 2,390
Kevmo to sf4dubya
You got it half right. Jews believe he was a false messiah because he didnt meet the requirements. We take the no man shall come before me stuff pretty seriously. When a Jew says he is the son of G-d, we kinda get puzzled because we believe we ALL are G-ds children.
***He didnt just claim to be the son of God, he claimed equality with God. He was God Himself. Even his enemies acknowledge the claim, and they put him to death for it. If he was NOT God Himself then he deserved his death sentence according to his crime of blasphemy. Ethelbert Stauffer points out that there were others in history who claimed to be Messiah and were not put to death.
And all of our stuff was sort of canonized before then, so he is not mentioned in our holy books. (Sounds like a familiar argument some use here against Mormonism.)
***And in your Canon there is Genesis 49:12, which states that the Messiah would come before Judah lost its own sovereignty (which happened when the Romans took over Jerusalem). If you want to watch a jew backtrack real fast on his own scriptures, see what he does with that one.
We dont believe in hell or any of that either.
***News to me. Ive met several jews who acknowledge hell. I see youre starting to sidetrack into issues that the original poster did not even question.
Life is the most precious gift; enjoy it now instead of worrying about the hereafter.
***Now youre contorting Judaism into what you want it to be. Your own scriptures do not support your viewpoint. But thats a problem between you and God.
G-d doesnt punish His children for all of eternity.
***Youre right, He punishes those who choose not to be His children. But even then, its probably not God doing such choosing, it is probably going to be those people loudly proclaiming that they want nothing to do with God for eternity.
No souls to save or any of that in the Reform/Conservative movements we think of Christians as lost sheep that will return to the flock anyway.
***Whatever, it appears that most of your post immediately sidetracked into issues that the original poster didnt even ask about.
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What is the consensus of Who Jesus is, generally, among Jews. Do they consider Him a prophet,
***From the many jews that I have discussed this with, the consensus is that Jesus was a great man, a lot like what most Americans believe. Some even consider him a prophet, but when confronted with his prophecies they relent and go back to the great man hypothesis. Most jews do not want to stir up a religious hornets nest. They have heard there are some issues with this Jesus character and they dont want trouble. The VERY LAST thing they will entertain is that Jesus was the Messiah.
or is He looked at as Someone heretical?
***Not until they are confronted with the historical fact that Jesus claimed to be God Himself. At that point, every jew I have spoken with has doubted the historicity of the claim, even though the enemies of Christ acknowledged (and used) it at the time of His death.
(I am sincere in the question. I can only go by my understanding of how He was looked at by the Jewish leaders in His day, according to New Testament Scriptures, and many did not approve of Him.)
*** When confronted with the historical FACT that Jesus claimed equality with God, jews today will fold into their own belief system, just like modern gentiles. In Jesuss time, he was looked at as a prophet who was widely discredited due to his claim of equality with God, therefore being put to death for blasphemy.
2,103 posted on Sunday, August 12, 2012 6:12:22 PM by Kevmo ( FRINAGOPWIASS: Free Republic Is Not A GOP Website. It’s A Socon Site.)
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Answers the objections that Jesus violated the law:
List of messianic prophecies and if Jesus fulfilled them:
Of course, early Christians were all Jews and Saul/Paul was the most notable of converts.
I classify myself as a Messianic Jew.
How is psalm 110 going to convince the Jewish people to accept that G-d went and turned into a sort of pharaoh? Pure curiosity. The conflict I see is that Jews just won’t accept a “this man here, he is Hashem, too” scenario.
Is this a trick question?
“How is psalm 110 going to convince the Jewish people to accept that G-d went and turned into a sort of pharaoh? Pure curiosity. The conflict I see is that Jews just wont accept a this man here, he is Hashem, too scenario.”
If the scripture won’t convince them, what can?
Perhaps this is one reason why. From wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies
On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und jren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther.
In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a “base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth.” Luther wrote that they are “full of the devil’s feces ... which they wallow in like swine,” and the synagogue is an “incorrigible whore and an evil slut”.
In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are
for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight;
for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings;
for their religious writings to be taken away;
for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do;
for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews;
for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and “put aside for safekeeping”; and
for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.
20th century...and not all evangelicals today believe in Zionism. These may back Israel politically since she became a nation, but don't believe her return was prophesied in the Bible.
For most of church history, the traditional interpretation has been that the promises to Israel in the Old Testament are not fulfilled literally but spiritually.
No, what I ask is, where from psalm 110 can be inferred that a Jewish king can be like the pharaoh? That’s what’s going to be quite a stumbling block
“No, what I ask is, where from psalm 110 can be inferred that a Jewish king can be like the pharaoh? Thats whats going to be quite a stumbling block”
Well, I don’t know the ins and outs of what the Pharaoh’s claimed, but here is what the scripture claims:
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
For starters, Trinity = Chillul Hashem
Daniel wasn't a prophet... to the Jews. He was a prophet to the kings and kingdom of Babylon.
Matthew 1314 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Daniel, chapter 5
23. But have lifted up yourself against the Lord of heaven; and the utensils of his house have been brought before you, and you, and your lords, your wives, and your concubines, have drunk wine from them; and you have praised the gods of silver, and gold, of bronze, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know; and the God in whose hand your breath is, and whose are all your ways, have you not glorified:
24. Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written:
25. And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, and PARSIN:
“20th century...and not all evangelicals today believe in Zionism. These may back Israel politically since she became a nation, but don’t believe her return was prophesied in the Bible.”
Luk_21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Presumably, Jerusalem will cease to be trodden down by the gentiles “when the times of the gentiles” are fulfilled.
In many ways, though, Jerusalem is still “trodden down” insomuch that the Muzzies still control the Temple Mount and all the world meddles in their affairs as bombs still continue to go off.
“Daniel wasn’t a prophet... to the Jews. He was a prophet to the kings and kingdom of Babylon.”
Daniel’s prophecies stretched forth way beyond Babylon and concluded with the establishment of a universal Kingdom ruled directly by God. He was a Prophet to all, not just the Babylonians.
Right. Jesus isn’t a prophet. He’s God in the flesh. Fully God and fully man.
Tautology in the video is false. Premise is that a prophet can do miracles but should be rejected if the would be prophet points to other gods.
Jesus didn’t do this. The Word was with God. The Word was God. The Word was made flesh.
New Testament refers to other miracle workers who were false prophets. Judas, who subsequently betrayed Jesus, was part of His ministry and presumably performed miracles in the name of Jesus.
we know OUR scripture better than anyone else
“we know OUR scripture better than anyone else”
From my experience they tend to know it extraordinarily poorly.
My comment was a reply to a quote from the poster, who was describing the content of his class (who is and who isn’t a prophet). Jews do not consider Daniel a prophet.
According with (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1009.htm) the name shall be “Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom”; “el-gibbor” is the part translated here as “The mighty God” and means “mighty man” or just “strong person”. Hard to sell that to Jewish autorities.
Kevmo pinged me... I am Jewish but not high end orthodox or Lubbavich or Chabad (there are many different sects and movements within Judiasm, and I don’t feel comfortable talking for them).
To answer your question about The Rebbe, go to Chabad.org.
I am not Chabad, but I do admire the Jewish outreach work they do.
We are born Jewish. We do not stop being Jewish, regardless if we reject our Jewishness. If your mother is Jewish, you are born a Jew.
I obviously can’t tackle the Christian part of your question.
I kindly ask that if you wish to ask me questions about my faith that it is for informational purposes only, ask for explanation or opinion, and do not attempt to convert me. I will of course give you the same respect.
I think there are really two questions that are relevant:
1. Did the Jewish people, as a whole, of the 1st century reject Jesus as their Messiah?
2. If not, at what point did the Jews, as a whole, begin to reject Jesus as the Messiah - and, why did this happen?
Obviously, in the 1st century, there were many Jews who DID accept Jesus as their Messiah. The church in Jerusalem was several thousand strong - all Jews. And, the Christian faith spread throughout the nation of Israel.
The Sanhedrin began persecuting the early church because of the huge inroads it was making and saw the Christians as a direct threat to their power and religion. But, on average, the everyday, common Jewish person did not seem to harbor an inate sense of hostility toward Jesus being the Messiah. The Jewish church was growing by leaps and bounds. Just read the book of Acts for confirmation of this.
Of course, the Christian gospel began to spread outside of Israel, and initially, there was resistence by the Jewish Christians to go outside of the Jewish family to the “gentiles”. It was a major issue that had to be resolved by the Apostles (also see Acts).
Some theologians theorize that it was after the Roman emperor Titus’s destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD that the all out rejection of the Christian faith began. The theory is that Jesus had given warning of a coming destruction of the Temple and told His disciples that that when they saw the city of Jerusalem surrounded by the “man of destruction” they were to flee for their lives. The theory goes on to speculate that it was this “fleeing” by the early Christians when the city faced imminent destruction by their enemies that caused Jewish opinion to turn against Christianity.
Now, whether that’s true I couldn’t say for sure.
My point is that the first church was thoroughly Jewish. The Apostles were Jewish, they continued to worship in the Temple in teach in the synogogues - at least until they were forcably thrown out by the authorities. There didn’t seem to be a problem for many Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah.
As to why Jews today reject Jesus as Messiah, I think it is partly due to the anti-Jewish persecution perpetrated on the Jews by so-called “Christian” leaders and governments throughout the past 1500 years. I think there is also this cultural/family/historical Jewish foundational rejection of Christianity that makes it very difficult for Jews to accept Jesus as Messiah - this would, in their minds, deny their heritage and people.
The Apostle Paul lamented and struggled with the question as to why it appeared that his people, as a whole, were not all turning to Jesus. Even though there were many who did accept Him, Paul still saw that most Jews, though maybe not completely out and out hostile to Christianity, were not accepting Him as their Messiah on a complete national scale.
He looked for the day when the Jews would be “grafted” back into the “vine”. He obviously thought that that would happen one day.
The Evangelical Christian support for Israel goes back to at least the 1950’s after Israel’s re-emergence as a nation in 1947. This is because many Christians saw this as a fullfillment of prophecy that God would one day restore Israel and bring His people back to their land. God still has plans for His people and the promises He made to Abraham still hold true. Yes, the Christian church is the “new Israel” (as Paul mentions in one of his letters), but God is not done with the Jewish people either and has promised to restore them not only nationally and politically, but also ultimately restored with salvation through their true Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth.
How God will do this, I don’t know, but hey, He’s God and trust that what He says, He will do.
The requirements weren’t met.
This is a relatively accepted explanation:
The Scripture reveals your question:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
In addition today- Many Jews do believe Jesus Christ to be the Messiah of Israel...
Most of what is written in the Gospels about the Last Days the end of the Age has now come to fruition..
Even the Famous Rabbi Kaduri revealed the name of Jesus as Messiah.
Rabbi Kaduri reveals name of Moshiach before death..
Praise G-d! May I ask, how would you classify those of us that are Gentiles, recognize that Yashua observed Torah, and believe, as his followers, that we should do the same to the extent we are able?
Currently GOD is still working with the Gentile Nations...
He has not concentrated on Israel just yet...
Acts 2:17 “’In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
“And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.
Mission Network News hardly ever talks about ministry in Saudi Arabia. It’s not because it’s not happening. It is. But it’s one of the most difficult places to be a Christian, let alone do ministry. That’s what makes this next story so profound.
“Maryam” is a Saudi woman, and she’s done something so unusual she’s taking the internet by storm. According to Mahabat News, she is the first modern day Saudi woman to announce her faith in Jesus Christ on YouTube.
Todd Nettleton with Voice of the Martyrs is amazed. “To see a Saudi woman put her face—even though it’s veiled, but to put her face on the internet and say, ‘I’m not a Muslim any more. I’m a Christian now.’ She basically is signing her own death warrant.”
According to reports, this video has made Saudi officials extremely angry. It is to the extent that they called to take necessary measures to deal with Christian evangelism in Saudi Arabia. Nettleton says, “It’s being talked about even at the highest levels of the government. [They’re saying], ‘Hey wait a minute, our young people are leaving Islam. They’re following Christianity. We’ve got to put a stop to it.’ And over 1 million people have already watched the video on YouTube.”
Nettleton tells about his thoughts when he saw this. “The first thought I had was the incredible courage it took to do that. The second thought is just the excitement that even in Saudi Arabia, which we don’t talk about it very often, God is reaching people. Muslims are having dreams and visions. They’re seeing Jesus Christ, and they’re coming to know Him and believe in Him.”
In any western nation, this wouldn’t be a big deal. In Saudi Arabia, however, “The Saudi government says Saudis are 100% Muslim. And so, she basically is renouncing that and putting a target, really, on her back.”
Why is Saudi Arabia rejecting all other religions? Nettleton suggests, “The Saudi government bills themselves as the guardian of Islam’s holy sites—not only to guard those sites in a security sense, but also to guard those sites spiritually and not allow Christianity to even have a foothold on the Arabian Peninsula.”
Nettleton is issuing a call to prayer, especially now. “It is the middle of Ramadan. Muslims all over the Arabian Peninsula are fasting and praying and seeking God. Let us pray that they find Him, just as this lady did in a dream when Jesus came to her. Let us pray that many more Muslims will meet Jesus.”
While this is a surprising story coming out of Saudi Arabia, it’s not the only story in the Middle East. The Mohabat report also indicates that a Kuwaiti prince has given his heart to Christ. Nettleton isn’t surprised. “You know, as we see the Gospel coming into some of these countries, it’s only natural that it will reach all walks of life. So when we see political leaders or people within the royal family, obviously that’s very exciting because they are in positions of influence, and they have a chance to really make a difference. So it’s a hopeful sign.”
“According with (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1009.htm) the name shall be Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; el-gibbor is the part translated here as The mighty God and means mighty man or just strong person. Hard to sell that to Jewish autorities.”
Actually, Gibbowr is the word being translated “mighty.” The “’el” is the word being translated God. It is used in all these following scriptures (bracketed):
But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and [God] that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.
And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land,O [Immanuel].
Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for [God] is with us.
The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty [God].
(This one is another Gibbowr’el, Mighty God)
Behold, [God] is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
There are many more, of course. The ‘el is never used when it is translated “mighty men,” and is always used in this context. It is sometimes used to refer to idols, or even false gods, so the context usually determines if it is the God of Israel.
The Jewish authorities ought to learn Hebrew.
You know, I had a whole post typed out to you with a bit more detail but it just now occurred to me that there is a simple answer.
JC isn’t the messiah for me (a conservative Jew) for the same reason he is the messiah for you...
I respect your faith. I know you can’t respect mine, but we all find out in the end. ;)
“My comment was a reply to a quote from the poster, who was describing the content of his class (who is and who isnt a prophet). Jews do not consider Daniel a prophet.”
A Prophet is anyone who has heard from God and speaks His message. Daniel certainly qualifies. The Jews can consider anything they want, but they can’t deny that Daniel had visions from God, including one that even gave the time table for when the Messiah would appear.
What I find odd as a Jew is the Christian perspective which says that the Pharisees were evil while as a Jew I know that Jesus was a member of a Pharisee sect and by his words a follower of Hillel...
I am not touching that with a ten foot pole.
Does islam cause desolation? Look at how it ravages nations.
The abomination that causes desolation stands in mockery today.
They have sown hellfire for 1400 years now. Harvest time is coming soon.
When you consider that Christianity began in Israel, and that the first evangelism was to synagogs in other countries, it seems that some Jews believed Jesus to be their Messiah. I’m married to one who does. There are actually quite a few Jews who believe Jesus is their Messiah. It would be interesting to compare the percentage of Jews who believe in Christ to the percentage of other racial and ethnic groups who believe in Christ. Maybe from a percentage standpoint, there is nothing exceptional about the Jews who reject Christ.
“Why do the Jews reject Jesus?”
It is simple, really.
A) He didnt perform any of the messianic tasks that would be exhaustive and conclusive to him. Example: Rebuilding the Temple, World Peace, Restoration of the Priesthood, Restoring the Jewish people to Torah Worship, Universal Knowledge of G-d, Restoring the lost tribes, Restoration of sacrifices.
B) Not one verse in all of Tanakh (OT) does it say the Law will end and be replaced by a “law of christ”
C) Not one verse in all of Tanakh does it say that messiah will fulfill the law on our behalf (thus ending the law)
D) Not one verse in all of Tanakh does it say that Human Sacrifice or Human vicarious atonement is acceptable to G-d, on the contrary, G-d says he hates it and it is an abomination to him, something that never entered His mind.
E) Not one verse in all of Tanakh does it say that G-d will come in the flesh as a human being. On the contrary, G-d says twice, in Deut 4, that the Jews at Sinai, saw no form, only a voice, so dont give Him a form.
F) The Christian versions of the Tanakh, the LXX (Jews only translated the first 5 books) and modern translations do not accurately render the Hebrew Masoretic texts. Example: Ps 22, does not say “pierced his hands and feet” Ka’ari, in the hebrew means, “like a Lion” they surround my hands and feet (same language as other parts of 22) Likewise Is 53 has many errors, Is 7:14, does not say “virgin”.
G) The book of Hebrews incorrectly states that “Only” through the shedding of blood, is there forgiveness. That is an incorrect rendering of Lev 17:11. Lev 17 is specifically stating that blood is not a food source, dont eat it. (also acts 15) bloods sole function other than keeping animals alive, is to be a sacrificial tool. It does not say that ONLY through blood is atonement. Lev 5:11 makes it clear that even flour atones. Also, prayer, repentance, charity, fasting also atone.
So there is a small sample....there is much, much more.