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To: Phinneous

How recently has it been that Evangelical Christians took up the cause of modern day Israel being a land for Jewish people? I have some acquaintances who claim that it’s actually a modern phenomenon, and not something that goes back more than 25 years or so. I found that hard to believe, as I thought evangelicals had always thought that way.


8 posted on 08/12/2012 9:39:56 PM PDT by krb (Obama is a miserable failure.)
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To: krb
How recently has it been that Evangelical Christians took up the cause of modern day Israel being a land for Jewish people? I have some acquaintances who claim that it’s actually a modern phenomenon, and not something that goes back more than 25 years or so

20th century...and not all evangelicals today believe in Zionism. These may back Israel politically since she became a nation, but don't believe her return was prophesied in the Bible.

For most of church history, the traditional interpretation has been that the promises to Israel in the Old Testament are not fulfilled literally but spiritually.

25 posted on 08/12/2012 10:02:01 PM PDT by what's up
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To: krb

There have always been Christians who have believed in God’s promises to the Jewish people would be literally fulfilled prior to the end of this age. Unfortunately, it’s intellectually easy or advantageous for many to broadly lump everyone in to traditional positions. Since Augustine’s The City of God the church (Catholic church) understood scripture and prophetic scripture through a lens of Replacement theology or Supersessionism. The Church is the fulfillment of all Jewish scripture and thus inheritor of all God’s promises. The loss of the land for Jews and their persecution were seen as evidence justifying the belief. Mohammedian’s beliefs are their own form of replacement theology as is the persecution of Jews seen as a validation of that belief.

Many Christians resort to arguments from tradition and that God’s Holy Spirit surely guided the church for over a millenium and would not have led the Church in error. If that were the case we should all learn Latin and return to using the Vulgate. There have always been Christians (maybe a remnant or a minority) that have taken God’s promises to the Jewish people literally and seriously. In the past - reformation period soteriological (study of salvation) and ecclesiological (study of the church and its form) issues dominated the questions of those centuries. Each generation must be judged in light of it’s understanding and within the century and time frame as they understood things and the relevancy of those issues. Even if I could excuse Christians hundreds of years ago (although John Calvin’s copious commentary on the Bible – skipped completely Romans chapter 9 through 11 because they didn’t fit his traditional view as understood in a replacement framework) I can’t believe the current 21st or 20th century can be excused nor will posterity look kindly on us as it is.

Even Charles Spurgeon didn’t spend significant time with eschatological issues dealing with the Jewish people and a literal fulfillment of prophecy-maybe because he knew it was both divisive and not essential for his generation. Both Replacement and non Replacement camps claim him as one of there own. However, many Christians looked forward to and believed God would restore the Jewish people to their land and inheritance. This is documented and especially true of many puritans in England and surrounding areas going back at least 4 centuries.
Eschatological issues are more relevant for this generation than the issues that Christians haggled over hundreds of years ago. Most of those issues today that many died for wouldn’t be understood and even if they were would be brushed aside in the blink of an eye in name of tolerance and or pragmatism.

Barry Horner’s Future Israel is the definitive modern look at the issue. here’s the link if anyone is interested

http://www.amazon.com/Future-Israel-Anti-Judaism-Challenged-Commentary/dp/0805446273/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2PXVUTW1RKEHZ&coliid=I6SX08JVWWFHH

Dr. James R. Sibley 2007-present Editor-in-Chief and Publisher, Mishkan (an international journal relating to the Jewish people and the gospel)

once showed me his personal collection gathered over many years of Christians/ Jewish/Hebrew/Christians and Christian missionaries going back to the reformation period who reached out to Jewish people and believed in the literal future fulfillment of Bible’s promises to the Jewish people regarding their inheritance and the land. It was extensive, rare and probably quite valuable. Probably shouldn’t even mention it but much of the history in this area is scare and or it’s relevance downplayed.

That’s enough for now…
cheers


69 posted on 08/13/2012 12:46:51 AM PDT by Sheapdog (chew the meat and spit out the bones)
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To: krb

I should add Jacob Dumkani, an Israeli born Jew and believer in Jesus/ Yeshua does much to promote and share his faith and views in Israel with the help of gentile believers. A bit controversial in Israel. He has a very famous book Why Me?

his website is and ministry is called “Trumpet of Salvation” if anyone is interested.

also his website offers a new dvd “The Other Side of the Cross” is free and a preview is here
http://vimeo.com/44858626

Here is the write up he has
It is a very powerful tool that will demolish centuries-old strongholds of lies about who Yeshua is and will reveal the truth about Him to both Jews and Gentiles around the world. It has been the result of a vision God put in my heart to glorify Yeshua with a film designed specifically for Israelis using the expertise of world-renowned historians and modern film production techniques - thousands will be re-educated and the lives of many Jewish people will be forever changed!


70 posted on 08/13/2012 12:47:25 AM PDT by Sheapdog (chew the meat and spit out the bones)
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To: krb

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints did back in 1841:

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1991/10/orson-hydes-1841-mission-to-the-holy-land


79 posted on 08/13/2012 3:05:35 AM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: krb

Christian Zionism is *relatively* recent, usually traced to Henry Finch in the early 1600s. It was based on the plain meanings of the translated text of the King James Bible. It was one of the undertones of the ‘Great Awakening’.


92 posted on 08/13/2012 6:47:05 AM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: krb
"that goes back more than 25 years or so."

25 years ? !!!

I have in my possession documentation of Jewish organizations preparing to possess Palestine, farm Palestine, build universities in Palestine, build industries Palestine, and build hospitals in Palestine, lay railroads in Palestine, and found a Jewish homeland in Palestine no later than 1840.

186 posted on 08/13/2012 2:16:15 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
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To: krb
Please notice the date of this article, February, 1913, and running the history back, you would have to go at last as far back as 1840 to find the beginnings of these efforts toward the Jews re-possessing Palestine.

THINGS TO COME, A Journal of Biblical Literature No. 224., February, 1913., Vol., XIX., No. 2., p. 23.

Signs of the Times.

JEWISH SIGNS.

It was to be expected that the Balkan War would have far-reaching effects, and among other results might lead to some changes in Palestine. DR. MAX NORDEAU, in a letter to The Times, under date Dec. 30, says:

"Zionism----the Jewish National Movement----as is declared in its programme first proclaimed in Basle 15 years ago, and since never modified, is a movement for the purpose of acquiring for the Jewish people a home in Palestine guaranteed by public law. There is no malicious distortion to which these few clear words have not been subjected.

"We have been denounced to the Turks as revolutionary adventurers bent on tearing off Palestine from the Ottoman Empire in order to found there a Republic or a Kingdom of the Jews. We have always emphasized the fact that the very essence of our proposal is to remain loyal to the Empire of which Palestine forms a part, and to transform this neglected province into a most valuable portion of the Empire's territory . . . "

After describing all the various agencies at work in Palestine, he adds:---- "It is therefore evidence of the strong passion to raise Palestine from the dust and set her as a jewel among the nations of the world which animates the Jewish masses. Can Europe at this point help us at least morally in our striving, and at the same time perform an act that will prove of far-reaching value to the future of the world's peace and prosperity.

"What we see now from European diplomacy is not an exercise in our favor of any imperative or unfriendly pressure on Turkey. She would energetically and with justice resent it, and before all in the world we are anxious to add nothing to her present embarrassments and afflictions. All we desire is to be afforded the opportunity of offering European diplomacy exact information as to our aspirations and to solicit its friendly interest in their behalf. Now that it has become a happy practice to solve all international questions in common, it is of the greatest importance to us that those high personalities who are called to treat and decide upon, the litigious matters of the world politics should have laid before them the facts of Zionism by those that really know them. What we have to ask of Turkey we wish to ask directly of her, thus avoiding the introduction of foreign intermediaries between her and ourselves. We ask only for common justice . . . ."

He then points out that under the existing laws regarding foreigners discrimination is made against the Jews, asks for the abolition of such unjust limitations and proceeds:----

"If facilities were offered to our influx we should soon be very many more. There is room enough for us in the scarcely inhabited land. We have no intention of dispossessing or crowding out anyone. We are ready to buy honestly every inch of the soil we can possibly obtain, and to offer for it a higher price than any other purchaser. To none has the neglected land the ideal and sentimental value it has to us. We seek to become throughout the Turkish dominions an Ottoman nationality equal before the law to other nationalities of the Empire, such as the Arabs, Syrians, Druses, Turks, Greeks, Armenians, Kurds. The party in power does not pursue the error of centralization, and of levelling "turkification." It seems, on the contrary, wisely prepared to allow each nationality free range for its moral, intellectual, and economic development. Devoted collaborators as they desire to be in the prosperity of the Turkish Empire, willing to learn the official language for use in their relations with the Imperial authorities and with their non-Jewish fellow-citizens, Jews wish to employ among themselves in Palestine, in their schools, and in their communal administration in that land, their own national language----Hebrew. They desire to obtain for it the same recognition as all other national languages of the Empire. They strive to raise Palestine agriculturally, industrially, commercially, intellectually to a highly flourishing State, and true to the spirit of Judaism to make of the land a "hearth-place" of European culture.

"With these facts we are anxious to impress European diplomatists. Their comprehension of our movement and its tenets and their kindly disposition towards it will constitute a most valuable gain for Zionism and the Jew. It will, I have no manner of doubt, be a particularly important item too in contributing to assure the world the future of European peace by an act of tardy justice which will secure a home to a people out of whose loins proceeded those prophets who descried in peace one of the highest of human ideals, and taught it as a religion to mankind."

We're glad to see that this appeal has been favorably received by the Press, as is evidenced by the following from The Globe of the same date:----

JEWS AND PALESTINE.

We cannot conceive any valid objection to Dr. Max Nordau's suggestion, embodied in a letter to the Times, regarding the settlement of Jews in Palestine. A time when the solution of many problems in the Near East seems likely, is surely opportune for discussing one of, the most important objects of Zionism. The growth of Anti-Semitism and the actual persecution of Jews in certain parts of the Continent has made it more necessary than ever that some country should be found which will afford an asylum specially to the poorer members of the scattered community. And in this respect no more suitable place than Palestine could be found. Dr. Nordeau has no revolutionary proposals to make. All he asks is that the Powers should support the demand of the Jewish community for common justice and equal rights in Palestine. Nor does he suggest that any sort of independence should be granted to Palestine. The Jews are only too anxious to become loyal subjects of the Turkish Government, provided they are recognized as an Ottoman nationality equal before the law to other nationalities of the Empire. Palestine, would of course, in these circumstances rapidly develop into a self-governing Jewish unit of the Empire, and the gain to Turkey, to Europe, and to Jewry would be inestimable.

194 posted on 08/13/2012 2:26:08 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
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To: krb
Please notice the date of the article, September 1894--NOT 1994, but 1894, and if you run the history back on these events, you will run at last as far back as 1840.

THINGS TO COME - A Jornal of Biblical Literature Vol. I.], SEPTEMBER, 1894., [No. 3., pp. 57-60.

The Signs of the Times.

THE great errors of the day may well be placed under three heads----the Fatherhood of God, the Motherhood of Nature, and the Brotherhood of Man. The first embraces all that is Rationalistic ; the second that which is Infidel ; the third that which is anti-Christian. In all the movements of the present day we may see the tendency to one or other of these giant errors. The last is perhaps at once the greatest and most prominent of the three, for it is that to which the others lead, and in which they culminate.

In proportion as God is dethroned and the Lord Jesus Christ is dishonoured, so man is exalted, and will in the end be deified.

We again note a few of many of the current facts which may not come under the eye of all our readers.

THE JEWS.

As regards the Jews, events are proceeding with rapidity. The solemn Fasts of the month of Abib, now just over, have awakened in the Jewish mind solemn thoughts as to Israel's past, and anxious hopes as to the future.

The month of Abib, they say, was the month when (1) the forty years' wandering in the wilderness was decreed ; when (2) the First Temple was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar ; when (3) the Second Temple was destroyed by Titus ; when (4) Bether was taken by the Emperor Hadrian, and 580,000 Jews were slain. It is now identified with Bittir ; and when (5) the site of Zion was ploughed as a field. (Jer. xxvi. 18, &c.)

The whole nation has been keeping this Black Fast throughout the world, and as each year passes the hope grows stronger that better times are at hand.

The Jewish Chronicle has just published two valuable papers by Mr. Haskett Smith, M.A., on "The Holy Land and its future prospects." The first was on "The Jewish Colonies of Palestine," giving an interesting account of these colonies as signs of "renewed life in Palestine," and as affording prospects of the re-occupation of the Land by the Jews. We have not space to quote any of its information.

The second article is on

RAILWAYS IN PALESTINE.

"The establishment of Jewish Agriculture Colonies in various parts of the Holy Land is, as we have already seen, a very remarkable and significant sign of the times ; being, as it is, a tangible and practical evidence of the fact that the country, so long desolate, is starting again into renewed vigor of life, and that the ancient people of God are commencing once more to gain a firm and sure footing on the sacred soil.

"Another striking example of the dawn of civilisation and progress in Palestine is to be found in the railways which are either in actual working order, in course of construction, or projected for commencement in the near future. Not a generation ago, such an idea as a railroad in the Holy Land would have been deemed a wild dream of the enthusiast's brain, impossible of realisation so long as the country remained under the dominion of the Moslem . . .

"In my opinion, the introduction of the railway system into Palestine, and the certainty of its gradually spreading over the country, however slowly, will probably do more than anything else to hasten the return of the Jews to the land of their forefathers . . . . There is no doubt that a sentimental objection against the introduction of the railway system into Palestine has existed, and indeed still exists, in the minds of many people. . . . Of one thing I am certain, nothing will conduce so surely and rapidly to the revival of life and activity in the land ; and nothing will probably tend more directly to expedite the re-settlement and re-population of Palestine."

After giving a detailed account of the various railways, projected, in progress, and completed, Mr. Haskett Smith concludes :

"Sooner or later these lines, or the majority of them, will inevitably be established in Syria and Palestine, whilst several smaller branches might be enumerated, completing the network of intercommunication.

"Seeing the stagnant conditions under which the country has lain for so many centuries, this prospect may appear visionary and chimercial to some people ; but so did the idea of any railway in Palestine only a few short years ago. The impetus once imparted will be sure to continue and increase, notwithstanding hindrances and obstacles which may be put in its way. The ultra-conservative prejudices of the Moslem and the suspicious fears of the Turk, the ignorance and fanaticism of the Oriental mind in general, may for a time offer more or less effectual opposition to the onward progress of civilisation in Palestine ; but they cannot prevail in the end. A bright future of industry, activity, and renewed prosperity is undoubtedly in store for the Holy Land ; and the question that Jews have now to consider most seriously is this : How they can practically, as a community and a nation, best avail themselves of the rising tide ? "

* * *

Another remarkable sign of the times is seen in connection with

THE WATER SUPPLY AT JERUSALEM. The special correspondent of The Standard telegraphs from Vienna, Tuesday, August 21st, "The Turkish Ministry of Public Works has determined upon the reconstruction of the ancient water conduits of Jerusalem, dating from the age of King Solomon. By this means it would be possible to convey two thousand five hundred cubic metres of water daily to the Holy City. Of this it is proposed to give one thousand metres away free of charge to the poor of Jerusalem, the distribution to take place at the Mosque of Omar, the Holy Sepulcher, and other places frequented by pilgrims." These aqueducts will bring the water to the city from the fountains of Arroul. A tunnel is to be built 3750 metres long, and is the cost £80,000. The aqueduct was still in working order in the time of Christ.

199 posted on 08/13/2012 2:36:39 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
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To: krb
From 1895

THINGS TO COME, A Journal of Biblical Literature Vol. I.], JUNE, 1895., [No. 12., pp. 233-236.

The Signs of the Times.

THE JEWISH NATIONAL MOVEMENT.

THE formation of a MACCABEAN SOCIETY is a significant Sign of the Times. It is remarkable that just at this time the Maccabean exploits should be specially called to mind.

* * *

The Jewish World of April 19th, says : "A perusal of the Chovevi Zion Quarterly, and of Colonel Goldsmid's manifesto, the major part of which we publish in another column, will be enough to show that the work of the colonization of Palestine is making real progress, and the reasons why that progress is necessarily slow. Perhaps it is not a matter for regret that we cannot immediately form a semi--independent State in the Holy Land, or anywhere else. Every true Jew must be in sympathy with the aims of the Chovevi Zion, and even with their views of the way in which those aims are to be worked for. Colonel Goldsmid points out, however, that it is not the object of the society to colonize Palestine with the Jews of England, or of any one country, but with Israelites whencesoever they come. Before the realisation of such a scheme can be a blessing to humanity, or even in the true interests of Israel, there must be a closer rapprochement between the Jews of every country ; not only in national and religious feeling, but in the elevation of ideal."

* * *

The following cuttings from Jewish papers are all of them significant evidence as to what is going on around us.

"When Ezra invited the Jews of Babylon to strive for the return to Palestine, the worthy pietists replied that it was an interference with the work of Providence. It may be of advantage to 'A. S. T.' to learn that of those forty-two thousand Sabbath-breakers who came with Ezra from Babylon to Palestine sprang Simon the Just, Judas Maccabæus, Hillel and Johann Ben Zakai, and the Talmud, and all that we hold dear in Judaism ; while the descendants of those worthy pietists who remained in Babylon were lost to Judaism forever. Some cavil at the National Idea because it is not congenial to their fashionable view of patriotism, we beg of them to reflect! When European sentiment will adopt the National Idea, We shall form an Internal question everywhere.

* * *

"Nationalism is a Mosaic institution, solitary, without exception, throughout antiquity. Empire, Catholic, Cosmopolitan, Communistic, never had any idea of nationality. Judaism only preached individual nationality. With the independence of Greece, some think with the Netherland rise, this Jewish aspiration became the battle cry of modern Europe. Belgium, Roumania, Bulgaria, and others have followed with the same claim.

* * *

"A private meeting of 'Daughters of Zion' was held in Sutherland Avenue, W., and a public meeting was decided upon. Several influential ladies are expected to take a leading part in this National Movement. This makes a new epic in Zionism. The honour of taking the initiative falls upon the Misses Isaacs, and they will thus earned the gratitude of all Zionists."

* * *

"We have received a mass of congratulatory letters on our suggestion of erecting a university at Jerusalem, many promising aid as soon as an official announcement is made.

* * *

"It has become customary amongst lovers of Zion in Russia to collect at B'riths or weddings for the farm labourers in Palestine, to aid them in becoming proprietors as colonists. We are asked to state that an attempt has been made here successfully. We shall be pleased to forward any money collected.

* * *

"We are extremists. Agriculture was unknown and forgotten by us, when suddenly it was raised to a lofty pinnacle. All the Zionists gave their hearty support to the agricultural movement, and now nothing else is supported. Agriculture is certainly the basis of the National Movement, but manufacture and commerce have also their claim upon us.

* * *

"All who love Zion raise your voice for unity. We need it now ! The time for earnest work has began ! We have the deed of property on our ancestorial lands, the Anglo-Jewish colony is in course of erection. We want you all----not a soul must be missing ; re-awaken the Tents of Zion, and where there are apparently none seek for the single lover of Zion the place contains, enter into communication with us or with Dr. Hirsch, and some results will be arrived at. Tours of the leaders into the provincial towns are urgently needed ; don't allow the splendid opportunity to pass. It is a day the house of Israel were long waiting for. Tell them in the language it deserves, that Edmund the Rothschild is a chief, an official leader of the National Movement ; joy and gladness will follow the train of this advancement."

______________________

We have much more similar material from those years.

203 posted on 08/13/2012 2:48:15 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
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