Posted on 09/24/2009 8:55:54 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator
Customary Jewish popular thinking about Christianity is out of touch and deeply misinformed. In contrast, leading conservative Christian and Jewish intellectuals today regard each others' faith with deep appreciation. Commentary regularly demonstrates sympathy for Christianity, and First Things similarly demonstrates sympathy for Judaism.
What happens to people who sin without atonement?
“Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.”
Pardon me for quoting the NT portion of God’s revelation, but are you of the opinion that Torah-trained Paul, the former Saul of Tarsus studied at the feet of Gamaliel, was making new stuff up when he wrote:
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, (Romans 3)Is it your opinion that Christ Himself was lying when He taught, "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: … And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Or perhaps just mistaken?
Please do not highjack this thread, whose purpose is explaining that Fundamentalist Protestants are “haters” and bigots.” Thank you. :-)
You know, that's exactly what I used to think! Then the Catholics and Orthodox taught me that the original chr*stians were Catholics/Orthodox who rejected original sin and didn't think there was anything wrong with anybody. Well, more the Orthodox than the Catholics (I once even had an Orthodox priest tell me there was absolutely no difference whatsoever between me sitting right there and then and Adam in the Garden).
Perhaps you should take an occasional break from your obsession with dispensationalism and do some arguing with your more "authenic" co-religionists, no?
In the meantime, thank you for not hijacking this thread!
Thank you for understanding!
This is the chr*stian position. It is not the Jewish position, since it assumes the inspiration of the "new testament," which Jews and Noachides do not.
OR a cat jumps on the keyboard.
My comment was sincere. I'm not in a position to know whether your facts are accurate, but your essay is neatly composed and well-organized.
::Sigh:: I wish our little cat were still here to jump on the keyboard. We're still grieving after losing him two weeks ago.
My comment was sincere.
My thanks are equally sincere.
I'm not in a position to know whether your facts are accurate,
Well, I used to be a Fundamentalist Protestant, then I was Catholic for six years, and I've also studied Eastern/Oriental chr*stianity, and I know for a fact that everything Fundamentalist Protestants assume about the chr*stian religion is denied by the ancient churches: total depravity, being born "damned," the vicarious damnation of J*sus in the sinner's place . . . all these are declared "Protestant errors" with no roots in chr*stian history. Roman Catholics say that man "fell from grace" (not the same thing as being turned from Dr. Jekyll to Mr. Hyde!) and that J*sus never suffered the G-d's wrath vicariously (there's a thread on the subject right now), and Eastern Orthodoxy rejects even original sin itself and the very notion of J*sus' death offering "satisfaction" for G-d's wrath against Adam (they prefer the "ransom" or "mousetrap" theory). And when chr*stianity starts claiming that "most people don't deserve to go to hell," why . . . the jig is up.
I can tell you exactly the moment I became a convinced Noachide and all my spiritual searching was over. I had left the Catholic Church and an Eastern Orthodox friend had loaned me a booklet on his faith. In it the writer railed on and on against the "arch-heretic" Augustine the "pagan" notion of original sin, which he attributed to Greek paganism. Do you know where this Eastern Orthodox writer claimed to find the "true doctrine" of human nature? I'll tell you exactly where he found it: in the Talmud! I took that as an admission that Judaism had been right all along and that no chr*stian religion was necessary. How someone could write such a thing and still defend any form of chr*stianity is beyond me.
I tell you this to let you know where I'm coming from, not to belittle anyone.
but your essay is neatly composed and well-organized.
Thank you again. Having "been there," I understand that Fundamentalist chr*stians do not "hate" anybody nor do they think that Jews are "evil"--merely "unsaved," like all the rest of "unsaved" humanity! I'm sorry that the two groups have so misunderstood each other and in my own poor way, I am actually trying to help and ultimately, to convert my own beloved people (and everyone else) to what I sincerely believe to be G-d's truth. Therefore I understand the proselytary impulse in others, whether chr*stians or moslems.
I think that's quite reasonable.
And I'm very sorry about your cat. One of ours died back in August, but we have one left. Although she attacked the greyhound's tail a few minutes ago ... if she tries that again, we may be out of cats. It's a very mild-mannered dog, but she can only take so much!
ZC,
Can you do me a favor?
You always post “chr*stians”. Why?
What I am asking is this: Do you believe Jesus is God?
If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.
..................
Yes?
Can you do me a favor?
Monsieur, as much as it is in my power (Claude Rains reference).
You always post “chr*stians”. Why?
I explained this in an earlier post on this thread.
What I am asking is this: Do you believe Jesus is God?
No I do not, and I don't understand why you can know that I am an observant Noachide and still have to ask the question. Observant Noachides, by definition, do not believe in J*sus or any other "gxd" but HaShem Alone.
No hostility is intended in any of this.
I am “fundamentally” speechless here.
I don’t know what site the Rabbi you mentioned has, and from the looks of it, it seems like an over-rationalization to explain something that really is self-explanatory.
Original sin is knowledge. And knowledge is NOT a sin. It’s what you do with it.
ONLY G-d could create evil because otherwise it could not exist. And from my point of view, who is a mere man to question G-d? For that matter, what man can possibly know the mind of G-d?
If you want to go the extra mile and say for the sake of argument that the BIBLE is EXACTLY the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then I have to ask this question.
WHY would G-d want a bunch of slow, stupid, lemminglike creatures who could never have survived in such a state created in the IMAGE of G-d? It doesn’t follow. Why put the Tree of Knowledge anywhere if we were never supposed to learn?
Just food for thought.
ZC,
You wrote:
“No I do not, and I don’t understand why you can know that I am an observant Noachide and still have to ask the question.”
I ask because it makes no sense for you to type out the name of someone whom you don’t believe is God with a letter missing like that. Jews often do that for the name of God. If you don’t believe Jesus is God, then there’s no sense in doing it. And since no one believes Christians are God, there is no reason at all to do it as you do.
I just read your explanation in the post far above. (sigh) I can’t see how that makes sense. I’m not trying to pick on you. Honestly.
I'm a little speechless myself, as I don't quite know what you're getting at. Boy, did I open up a can of worms or what?
"Original sin" is not knowledge. Before eating from the tree Adam certainly had plenty of knowledge--more than we have today. "Original sin" is a specifically Roman Catholic term used to mean two different things: 1)hache't haqadmon (the first sin, the eating of the fruit by Adam), and 2)hayetzer hara`, the evil inclination which G-d placed within Adam to begin with but over which he lost his original control after the sin.
ONLY G-d could create evil because otherwise it could not exist.
Unfortunately, not everyone understands that. Instead they posit an evil counterpart to G-d who made all the "bad stuff." Note however that G-d is good--He is neither evil (G-d forbid!) nor indifferent to evil (G-d forbid!) but uses evil for His own good and holy purposes in ways we can never understand from the point of view of the physical world.
And from my point of view, who is a mere man to question G-d?
Word! I feel you!
For that matter, what man can possibly know the mind of G-d?
We can't. We can only know what He has chosen to reveal, and that we can be sure of.
If you want to go the extra mile and say for the sake of argument that the BIBLE is EXACTLY the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then I have to ask this question.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Do you mean the chr*stian "bible?" I reject the "new testament" as false. Do you mean the TaNa"KH? It consists of three separate strata: the first written by G-d, the second inspired by the spirit of prophecy, and the under "Divine inspiration." Each of these latter two strata are written under an inspiration that is a step lower than the one that preceded it. The Torah alone was written directly by G-d Himself and is of fully Divine origin.
Do you mean the what is written in the TaNa"KH only and not what is in the Oral Torah? I accept the Oral Torah as having been given to Israel at Sinai at the very beginning and reject what Catholics call "sola scriptura." I most definitely believe in the legitimate, immemorial Authoritative Oral Interpretive Tradition, though not to any pretenders to that title. If you are asking if I believe that we know everything there is to know, I say of course not. If you are asking if I believe the Torah or Na"KH is a mere human work that contains mistakes, then no, I don't.
WHY would G-d want a bunch of slow, stupid, lemminglike creatures who could never have survived in such a state created in the IMAGE of G-d?
I don't know. Since I never suggested such a thing ('Adam HaRi'shon "slow" and "stupid"???), perhaps you can hunt down whoever you are arguing with and correct him.
It doesn’t follow. Why put the Tree of Knowledge anywhere if we were never supposed to learn?
Just food for thought.
Ah, you're implying that G-d didn't really mean it when He forbade Adam to eat of the tree. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with that. At the same time the eating was foreknown from all eternity, already written in the Torah, and governed at all times by G-d's All-Embracing Providence.
You ask me how this is explained. I'll tell you:
I don't know! (Tevye reference)
I hope this response satisfied whatever issues you were raising.
Jews avoid writing in full names and words for G-d, that is true. They also avoid writing out the names of false "gxds" for the precisely opposite reason. I don't just refrain from writing out the full name of J*sus, but also of all false "gxds," including those for which the days of the week and months of the year are named (not to mention planets). I do it as a religious scruple and not to offend or hurt anyone, and I explained why I use the "*" rather than the "X." At one time I thought chr*stians would at least appreciate my going to the extra effort to let them use the "X" themselves in good conscience, but none ever has and I suppose none ever will.
I just read your explanation in the post far above. (sigh) I can’t see how that makes sense. I’m not trying to pick on you. Honestly.
Unfortunately, I can only do my best to explain. If my best isn't good enough, I am not going to be able to explain it to you.
Be well.
Then why only forbid Adama and NOT Eve? There are two Genesis stories. In neither one was Eve forbidden to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.
AND YET, Christianity blames women for the sins of the world.
The Hebrew Mystics hid knowledge and kept it to themselves. It was a means of control. I don’t care how long you study. There are truths and then there is THE TRUTH.
Moses had his hands full trying to get stubborn people to understand why it was absolutely necessary to understand that without ONE, TRUE G-D, there could never be anything as elusive as freedom.
G-D gave man dominion over the beasts, not over each other.
Those who replace G-D with ANYthing have added a link in a mental chain that is hard to break. It is a weakness and yet another means of control and one step further away from TRUTH.
Abraham knew it. Moses knew it. The Romans knew it. Paul knew it. And Paul used it to help the Romans destroy the Jews.
I try not to comment on religious threads, but I’m sure ZC will engage you. I obviously don’t accept the Christian concept of original sin, and don’t know what the Rabbi’s case is regarding Christians. While I understand the concept if the conclusion is that support for Israel shouldn’t be accepted from Christians I doubt I would agree, but if it’s on the web a link might be interesting to read. IMO that’s a secular rather than religious issue.
SJackson, Israel needs all the friends it can get. The mistrust comes in the prosletyzing. That is what gets to some Jews. I don’t care about it for myself. And I seriously wonder why adults would worry about it either. If you are secure in your belief, good on ya. But if you can be so easily swayed from it, then what good are ya? That’s the gist of it.
If you want to protect your children, be a strong parent and teach them the way they should go. If they later choose differently, they were not persuaded.
If you did not teach them, someone else will, and THAT is on you.
If Judaism could be boiled down to ONE word, it would be LEARN. Never stop questioning and never stop learning. That is why the Kabbalah will never be finished. There is ALWAYS something to learn.
PS. I try not to comment on religious threads either. I’m too stubborn and headstrong.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.