No, not THAT Calvin — although maybe he has a birthday coming up, too. Posted on 06/27/2009 8:20:23 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
No, not THAT Calvin — although maybe he has a birthday coming up, too.
The rock star of the moment is John Calvin, the stereotypically dour theological chaperone of Geneva (his 500th birthday is July 10). A balanced, nicely-done story by Religion News Service writer Daniel Burke maps the lawyer’s influence on American evangelicals, particularly Southern Baptists. But why is Calvin becoming so, er, trendy? Well, it isn’t because of his clothes, his beard, or even the way he wanted to govern Geneva. It is, as Burke astutely notes in his lede, Calvin’s doctrine that is undergoing, excuse the expression, a renaissance among conservative Christians:
Like most 24-year-old men, Stephen Jones is keenly interested in sin. But while many of his peers enjoy their youthful indiscretions, Jones takes a more, shall we say, Puritanical stand.Absolute depravity? Double predestination? Full-scale refutation of the doctrine of free will? Who knew these would make such a comeback? Not only do Neo-Calvinist churches like Mars Hill, Seattle and Redeemer Presbyterian in New York City have large populations of young worshippers, but they are pastored by clergy, like Mark Driscoll and Tim Keller, who have become authors and media figures in their own rights.Last weekend (June 12-15), Jones and 4,000 other young Christians packed into a convention center in Palm Springs, Calif., to hear preachers tell them that they are totally depraved, incapable of doing the right thing without a mighty hand from God, and — most importantly — have absolutely no control over their eternal fate…
“His theology is the hottest, most explosive thing being discussed right now,” said Justin Taylor, 32, a self-described Calvinist, and an editorial director at Crossway, a Christian publisher in the evangelical heartland of Wheaton, Ill. “What he taught is extraordinarily influential right now.”
Burke notes that this surge in influence has been expressed in some innovative ways, like Facebook fan clubs and Twitter feeds. But, as he also does a good job of clearly articulating why and how this shower of Calvin-related worship, books, and church plants has brought controversy with it — even among conservative Christians.
…former Southern Baptist Convention President Jerry Vines said Calvinism inhibits evangelism and missionary work, which is the lifeblood of the SBC, the nation’s largest Protestant denomination. If Jesus died only for the elect, then what’s the point of trying to reach others, said Vines, who co-organized a conference dedicated to debunking Calvinism last year.Vine’s question is a very good one, and there are plenty of other ones that journalists could be asking the Neo-Calvinists. What the connection between the neo’s and the so-called “emerging churches?” What about Calvin’s strong anti-Catholic bias? Ann Rodgers of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette quoted Orthodox Church in America Metropolitan Jonah today as saying that Calvinism among some Anglican evangelicals was a “condemned heresy” posing a problem that needed to be resolved before full communion between the new Anglican Church in North America and OCA was possible.“I do believe it is possible to be a five-point Calvinist and be evangelistic and missionary-minded,” Vines said. “But their evangelism and missionary work is in spite of their Calvinism, and not because of it. That’s going to make some of them mad, but I do believe it.”
Yes, indeed, he’s very hot at the moment.
As the media begins to dig deeper (hopefully), the controversy over what Calvin really believed and how these new Calvinists are expressing it needs to get more attention. Burke’s article is a great beginning. If you want a more secular perspective, with some interesting history thrown in, read the Associated Press story by Hanns Neurbourg here. In a story about one of the towering figures of the Reformation, there’s remarkably little analysis of Calvin’s theology. But there is a lot of data on his influence on the arts, democracy, and economics — much of it in revolt against the sage of Geneva, an apparently humble man who would probably not have guessed that 500 years after his birth, he would be making square so hip.
At the lowest point in my life, I was on my knees crying to God that if He had chosen to create me as a vessel of destruction, then so be it.
Has Calvin actually said this was possible? Quotes please.
Did you ask the question of Reformed pastors? Just wondering.
Would a vessel created for destruction cry out to God?
if you read Calvin you’ll see — the very idea of pre-destination and chosen means that some are elect and many are damned by God. that’s just the way it is, some win, some lose. You can ask any Reformed pastor.
Not which Calvin?
I thought it was Calvin and Hobbes. But there's a picture of Calvin Coolidge, our 30st President, to the left of the article.
John Calvin, media star, isn't the real John Calvin. He probably wouldn't appreciate being wished a "Happy Birthday" either.
If you want to read a brief explanation of what Calvinism teaches, click on the link from Alex’s post at #7.
Your biblical illiteracy is showing.
Okay, I just did read the article.
Just so you know, I am a literate, thinking person.
Despite what I read in the article, the section “Limited Atonement” continues to puzzle me. Therefore, I was NOT able to answer my continuing question: If I do everything the Bible says one must do to be saved, yet God has not CHOSEN me to be saved, then what?
You see...my thought on this is that if you are chosen to be a “vessel of destruction”, even though you desperately WANT to be saved and spend Eternity with Christ in Heaven, what is the point of living a good and quiet life down here? If you knew that no matter what you did, you’d be destined for Hell, wouldn’t you out living like a sinner? Having as much ‘fun’ as you could before you died?
I mean...if I knew I wasn’t going to make it to Heaven, no matter what I did, I’d be living like a completely depraved man. After all...I have only one destiny, so why not live it up?
To those of you who are ignorant of the doctrine of election, I’ve got a few questions.
Does God know all things?
Does God know the future of each man’s soul?
Does God know who will or won’t “choose” Him, before the “choice” is made?
It seems to me from your questions that you disagree with Unconditional Election. A vessel created for destruction does not desperately want to be saved because of Total Depravity.
Which was right then? The Bible or Calvin?
“knowing” or prescience is different from ordaining or destiny.
The Bible is right. See if you agree:
Matthew 11: 20 - 27:
Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida!
If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
So here’s your question:
God foreknew Tyre and Sidon’s free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND God foreknew Tyre and Sidon’s free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.
True, or False?
I’m assuming you agree that God knows ALL things, including the decisions of man before they are made.
So if God creates a man, knowing that the man will not repent, He has necessarily preordained the destiny of that man’s soul. Has He not?
No. God can see all and can do all — the fact that he doesn’t and gives us free will is a miracle. God does not pre-ordain that people will go to hell.
You sound as though that makes God capricious. And you sound bitter as though you think it's unfair.
But I think it shows His great mercy. I think every human deserves His wrath, including me. But this makes all the difference:
"but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."
Yes, you are mistaken.
If you want to get saved, ask Jesus into your heart, and believe he has risen from the dead, and confess that publicly -
you are obviously saved. All the activity above is evidence of that. No Calvinist I know would deny it!
Psalm 139:1-6 (ESV) O LORD, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it.
Isaiah 46:9b-11 (ESV) for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there in none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, “My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,” calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.
Romans 9:19-23 (ESV) You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? But WHO ARE YOU O MAN, TO ANSWER BACK TO GOD? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory -
You can bow to God’s will or you can bow to man’s will but you can’t bow to both. Man’s will was corrupted by the fall, we are incapable of “choosing” to love GOd, apart from God circumcising our hearts (born again).
You might want to spend some time reading and re-reading the book of John. The words of our Lord should bring you to your knees when you realize that if you are one of His sheep, it’s because God adopted you into His family, of His own will, despite your rebellion.
You didn’t “choose” Him, He chose you to be a member of His family (1 Cor. 1:30 - An because of HIM, you are in Christ Jesus).
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