Calvin: he’s hot, hot, hot

GetReligion ^ | June 27, 2009 | E.E. Evans

[Cronos]

Your question:

God foreknew Tyre and Sidon’s free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND God foreknew Tyre and Sidon’s free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew. True, or False?

God foreknew both choices -- True. God chose (I disagree with this anthropomorphism) not to interrupt the free will He gave us. True.

God foreknowing <> God pre-damning.

Remember Nineveh? Remember the choice given to Lot at Sodom and Gomorrah?

God does not pre-damn people to hell. God gives us free will and God KNOWS what choices we will make and He lets us make them, even if they lead us away from him. Why? I don't know, but I do know that we are not automatons in some macabre cosmic game where some are pre-planned to damnation.

[Cronos]

If every man and woman were not guilty of Adam's sin, then why did Jesus have to die?

We had original sin, true. That led to the people before Christ not being damned to hell but being kept from the presence of God (equally terrifying).

Original sin keeps us away from God, sinning of our own free will leads us to hell

Saying otherwise is saying that Yes, God is perpetually angry with all of us and God hates all people even before they are born. He picks a foetus and says "you will be tortured in hell for all eternity. I will ensure that you will sin and then will judge that you have sinned, hence should go to hell" And this is an angry, vengeful God that needs to be appeased not loved. That makes god no better than Moloch or any Aztec deity.

[Cronos]

However, Adam’s sin damned us all.

It did not DAMN us to hell, it separated us from the presence of God. Hell is a real place of torment for the bad choices WE make. That's why you have the saying that the sins of the father not be passed to the son. Then how could the sin of Adam be passed to us? The sin of Adam closed the door between God and Man while Christ opened it. THAT is what his sacrifice was about

[Cronos]

The important thing, I think, is to realize that both Jacob and Esau deserved hell, because they were both sinners. God’s mercy is shown on Jacob, but it is no disservice to Esau. It is just mercy on Jacob. So often we react, in our sinful nature, as though God has done something wrong or unfair in saving Jacob.

Both were denied the presence of God until Christ opened the door. The judgement on where they ended up is not discussed in The Bible and is pure speculation.

[Cronos]

Praise God, not Calvin.

how can you say that? Calvin gave us the Gospel cleansed of all Papist influences. Alleliua Calvin!

[Marie2]

“The judgement on where they ended up is not discussed in The Bible and is pure speculation.”

I think “Jacob have I loved, Esau I have hated” is pretty indicative of their final state.

[Matchett-PI]

"God foreknew both choices -- True. God chose..not to interrupt the free will He gave us. True.

Thank you. I see, like Calvin, you do agree with Scripture on that issue.

"God does not pre-damn people to hell. God gives us free will and God KNOWS what choices we will make and He lets us make them, even if they lead us away from him. Why? I don't know, but I do know that we are not automatons in some macabre cosmic game where some are pre-planned to damnation."

Again, I see you agree with Calvin. (What you are describing is the UNbiblical scriptural interpretations of hyper-Calvinists aka "fatalists".)

You may appreciate these two links below. I think you will agree with me that J.P. Holding has provided some of the best "push-back" against the TULIP arguments made by some Calvinists that you've ever seen.

(PS: I'm more of an Alvin Plantinga Calvinist than most of the others.)

First link

Second link:

Scroll to "Update" at the bottom of the page here, if you want to read the details regarding this statement, first:

"To my surprise there is a name for this view I have proposed, and it is one advocated by various Christian philosophers like [Alvin] Plantinga and [William Lane] Craig, in various forms: it is called libertarianism. ..." [Both Plantinga and Craig are "Calvinists"] [snip]

[Cronos]

So you do believe that God gave us free will?

[Matchett-PI]

ABSOLUTELY! So did Calvin.

[Marysecretary]

He also said that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and that OUR righteousness was like filthy rags. Don’t worry, God knows that there is no one good but Jesus. We are sin sick and depraved except for Jesus Christ in us.

[Marysecretary]

My pastor always put it this way. There won’t be one person in heaven that’s not supposed to be there, and there won’t be one person in hell who isn’t supposed to be there (because they denied Christ). It all comes through our relationship with Jesus Christ. He’s my Lord and Saviour and I have the assurance of eternal life with Him.

[Marysecretary]

Remember, dear one, that we ALL fall short of the glory of God. Don’t you think God knows that? So He sent Jesus to be the propitiation for our sins. Confess your sins to Him in repentance and keep moving on.