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Liberty's champion: On his 500th birthday, two cheers for John Calvin
WORLD Magazine ^ | July 04, 2009 | Marvin Olasky

Posted on 06/19/2009 7:09:41 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

For the non-Calvinists or anti-Calvinists among us who may worry that this issue of WORLD has several articles about John Calvin, be not afraid: It happens only once every 500 years. July 10 brings the 500th anniversary of John Calvin's birth—and the great theologian, even with his warts, deserves a better press than he has typically received in recent decades.

Calvin was a fallen sinner, as all of us are, but was he especially mean-spirited? He taught that God created the world out of love and loved the world so much that Christ came down from the glorious kingdom of heaven and plunged into this world's muck. Calvin saw God as a generous giver and His mercy as an abundant resource. Jehovah's Witnesses would later insist that heaven has room for only 144,000, but Calvin understood that God's grace is infinite.

Did Calvin emphasize in-group harshness toward the poor and the alien? No: He wrote, "We cannot but behold our own face as it were in a glass in the person that is poor and despised . . . though he were the furthest stranger in the world. Let a Moor or a barbarian come among us, and yet inasmuch as he is a man, he brings with him a looking glass wherein we may see that he is our brother and neighbor." Everyone is created in God's image and worthy of respect.

Did Calvin want us to abstain from all material pleasures? He wrote that God "meant not only to provide for necessity but also for delight and good cheer. . . . Has the Lord clothed the flowers with the great beauty that greets our eyes, the sweetness of smell that is wafted upon our nostrils, and yet will it be unlawful for our eyes to be affected by that beauty, or our sense of smell by the sweetness of that odor?" He opposed any doctrine that "deprives us of the lawful fruit of God's beneficence."

Calvin also opposed doctrines that deprive us of political liberty. His understandings—that God-given laws are superior to those of the state, the king, and any other institution, and that individuals have direct access to the Bible, without dependence on pope or priest—are common now, but compare them to the political and theological theories fashionable before his time. In ancient times, pagan states revered leaders as semi-divine. Those who argued with such bosses were seen as deserving death. In medieval times, the interpretations of church officials often trumped the words of the Bible itself (which few people could read). They identified God's kingdom on earth with a church monopoly, and hanged, burned, or decapitated some with other ideas.

Calvin and other Reformation leaders, though, separated church and state while emphasizing the importance of believers working to lead the state. Calvin contended that, since God reigns everywhere, His followers should be entrepreneurs in every strategic institution, including government, civil society, commerce, media, law, education, the church, and the arts. This emphasis led directly to what has become known as the "Protestant ethic," with its unleashing of individual initiative and its emphasis on hard work in purportedly secular areas. Many kinds of labor are equally worthy, Calvin argued, and those in charge of one activity should not dictate to others.

Calvin's writings also had an implicit anti-statism. Since fundamental law comes from God, obeying the law means obeying God, not necessarily the state. Rebellion against an unlawful state act, led by "lesser magistrates" such as local leaders, is really a justifiable maintenance of true law. One Calvin disciple in 1579 wrote Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos ("Vindication Against Tyrants"), which emphasized the limits of power.

Would freedom ring? The English jurist Blackstone called "the power and jurisdiction of Parliament transcendent and absolute . . . sovereign and uncontrollable." English lawyers joked that "Parliament can do everything except make a woman a man, or a man a woman." (Some of our jurists and legislators are more ambitious.) But generation after generation of Calvinists read Vindiciae and emphasized that government must be under God. According to John Adams, its doctrines greatly influenced Americans of the 1760s and 1770s.

Calvin's birthday comes six days after the Independence Day that owes much to his teaching. Bake a cake and know that Calvin was not against enjoying it.


TOPICS: Apologetics; History; Ministry/Outreach; Theology
KEYWORDS: calvin; churchhistory; happybirthday; olasky
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Calvin also opposed doctrines that deprive us of political liberty. His understandings—that God-given laws are superior to those of the state, the king, and any other institution, and that individuals have direct access to the Bible, without dependence on pope or priest—are common now, but compare them to the political and theological theories fashionable before his time. In ancient times, pagan states revered leaders as semi-divine. Those who argued with such bosses were seen as deserving death. In medieval times, the interpretations of church officials often trumped the words of the Bible itself (which few people could read). They identified God's kingdom on earth with a church monopoly, and hanged, burned, or decapitated some with other ideas.

1 posted on 06/19/2009 7:09:42 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy

But the real question... would Calvin have played a Les Paul or a Strat?


2 posted on 06/19/2009 7:12:13 AM PDT by Terabitten (Vets wrote a blank check, payable to the Constitution, for an amount up to and including their life.)
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To: Alex Murphy; Dr. Eckleburg; xzins; P-Marlowe; Revelation 911; blue-duncan; Frumanchu; Gamecock

A great day for a barbecue!

:-)


3 posted on 06/19/2009 7:13:04 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands ("Failed Obama Administration" (TM))
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To: Alex Murphy

Calvin. An interesting person who, according to his own philosophy, may or may not have been elect.


4 posted on 06/19/2009 7:21:44 AM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: Corin Stormhands

Speaking of barbecues, Miguel Servet (Servetus) is not available for comment.


5 posted on 06/19/2009 7:42:15 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: Alex Murphy
Calvin also opposed doctrines that deprive us of political liberty.

But Calvin promulgated doctrines that would deprive us of spiritual liberty. He taught that God predestined part of mankind to a) sin and b) go to hell.

I won't be baking him a cake.

6 posted on 06/19/2009 7:43:53 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: agere_contra; Larry Lucido; Alex Murphy; Dr. Eckleburg; xzins; P-Marlowe; Revelation 911; ...
But Calvin promulgated doctrines that would deprive us of spiritual liberty.

C'mon folks. I'm no Calvinist. But there is much we can learn from John Calvin. Whether you agree with him or not you cannot discount his very significant and very positive impact on Christianity and, for that matter, on the founding of this nation.

7 posted on 06/19/2009 7:52:49 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands ("Failed Obama Administration" (TM))
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To: Alex Murphy

8 posted on 06/19/2009 8:27:33 AM PDT by Dr.Deth
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To: agere_contra

“He taught that God predestined part of mankind to a) sin and b) go to hell.”

Do you know of anyone God predestined to go to hell?


9 posted on 06/19/2009 8:45:04 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan
Do you know of anyone God predestined to go to hell?

Interesting question. Why would it matter? If someone were of the elect then they would be not damned if they did or not damned if they didn't. Why would a person need to worry about it one way or another?
10 posted on 06/19/2009 8:50:20 AM PDT by AD from SpringBay (We deserve the government we allow.)
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To: agere_contra
But Calvin promulgated doctrines that would deprive us of spiritual liberty. He taught that God predestined part of mankind to a) sin and b) go to hell.

Calvin reminded us that all spiritual liberty is a gift from God. Calvin reminded us that Rome had it wrong and that an individual's conscience, either renewed by the Holy Spirit, or left to its own craven desires, is what determines a man's salvation.

11 posted on 06/19/2009 9:00:31 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Alex Murphy; Corin Stormhands; AD from SpringBay; agere_contra; Dr.Deth; Verginius Rufus; ...
Happy Birthday to a fellow saint among saints, saints!

JOHN CALVIN
THE FATHER OF AMERICA

"Very few people today realize that our country was founded on the theology of John Calvin, the Protestant Reformation's greatest leader and organizer, who lived from 1509-1564. Calvin provided our founding fathers with a working model for the separation and co-operation of Church and State. For this and many other reasons many historians have called John Calvin the virtual founder of America. George Bancroft, an American historian, calls Calvin ‘the father of America,’ and adds, ‘He who will not honor the memory and respect the influence of Calvin knows but little of the origin of American liberty.’ It is a fact that many of the Pilgrims were Calvinists. Pastor John Robinson, the leader of the Pilgrims, was a Calvinist. The Puritans, who came after the Pilgrims, and who formed the great bulk of the settlers in New England, were Calvinists. John Endicott, the first governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony; John Winthrop, the second governor of that Colony; Thomas Hooker, the founder of Connecticut; and John Davenport, the founder of the New Haven Colony, were all Calvinists. It is estimated that at the time of the American Revolution, two-thirds of the colonial population had been trained in the theology of Calvin. More than one-half of all the soldiers and officers of the American Army during the Revolution were Calvinists. All of the colonels of the Colonial Army except one were Presbyterian elders. The war for Independence was spoken of in England as “The Presbyterian Rebellion.” Certainly, it is worthwhile for every American to know what John Calvin taught..."

12 posted on 06/19/2009 9:11:43 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Woo Hoo!!! Happy birthday to Mr. Calvin.


13 posted on 06/19/2009 9:14:00 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Alex Murphy

Although I am doctrinally a “Calvinist”, Calvin himself did not want to extend religious freedom to others.


14 posted on 06/19/2009 9:17:59 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Thank you so much for the article! And Happy Birthday, John Calvin!


15 posted on 06/19/2009 9:34:08 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: agere_contra
He taught that God predestined part of mankind to a) sin and b) go to hell.

I won't be baking him a cake.

Where in his writings did Calvin ever teach that God's decree to permit the fall affected, excepting Jesus Christ, only part of mankind?

Cordially,

16 posted on 06/19/2009 9:55:24 AM PDT by Diamond
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To: Verginius Rufus

LOL True. He’s just toasty now.


17 posted on 06/19/2009 10:34:21 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Alex Murphy; Dr. Eckleburg
Calvin provided our founding fathers with a working model for the separation and co-operation of Church and State.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." Part of the First Amendment which lead to the phrase “separation of church and state.”

Unfortunately, in an effort to not lose their tax exempt status (a Congressional law that now voluntarily shackles free exercise); Christian churches have so separated themselves from speaking about state matters that they have become marginalized. Meanwhile the State, ironically, is fast becoming “the church.”

18 posted on 06/19/2009 10:45:41 AM PDT by suzyjaruki (What is coming next?)
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To: suzyjaruki
Christian churches have so separated themselves from speaking about state matters that they have become marginalized.

Liberal churches and black churches are exempt.

Meanwhile the State, ironically, is fast becoming “the church.”

That happened a long time ago. The secular church-state has been awaiting their Messiah. Obama is now the Messiah of the Statist.

19 posted on 06/19/2009 10:51:23 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
Obama is now the Messiah of the Statist

True.

I do pray for him. My prayer is that he will not be martyred. I often pray that he stays out of the rain. It is my understanding that turkeys, like him, who turn their heads up in the rain sometimes drown.

20 posted on 06/19/2009 11:05:09 AM PDT by suzyjaruki (What is coming next?)
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: Alex Murphy

I needed a good laugh today.

Thanks!

Calvin as a champion of liberty??!?!?!

Ask Michael Servetus.

Your hero JC had him BURNED and EXECUTED for what he personally believed.

Calvin did teach that God predestinated some (or many or billions?) to Hell.

That is true.

You just WILL NOT FIND ONE SCINTILLA OF BIBLE TRUTH to back up that monstrous heresy.

Calvin - he better not be your Saviour.


22 posted on 06/19/2009 11:49:45 AM PDT by Jonathan
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To: Jonathan
Your hero JC had him BURNED and EXECUTED for what he personally believed.

That caricature is a very popular one, but utterly and completely false.
Calvin vs. Servetus, by J. Steven Wilkins

Calvin did teach that God predestinated some (or many or billions?) to Hell.

"Predestinated ...to Hell" is somewhat ambiguous. Perhaps you can tell more precisely what you mean by it and to what exactly you object.

Cordially,

23 posted on 06/19/2009 12:31:52 PM PDT by Diamond
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To: Corin Stormhands

I agree completely.


24 posted on 06/19/2009 12:34:48 PM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: Alex Murphy

Joyeux anniversaire et merci beaucoup, Jean Cauvin...


25 posted on 06/19/2009 2:15:34 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Jonathan

Calvin is no one’s saviour. Jesus Christ is.


26 posted on 06/19/2009 3:02:50 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: agere_contra; Alex Murphy; Dr. Eckleburg
He taught that God predestined part of mankind to a) sin and b) go to hell.

No, this is wrong. Mankind was left to our own devices so that we know how wicked we truly are. God SAVES some of us so that we can understand grace and mercy.

27 posted on 06/19/2009 4:06:26 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
God SAVES some of us so that we can understand grace and mercy. Ridiculous!

If you can't apply that to love your enemy than you're not going to be as saved as you think you are.

Perhaps you can explain how the mentally retarded understand grace and mercy?

Love is all that matters.When are you going to UNDERSTAND that,my dear brother?

28 posted on 06/19/2009 4:46:49 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
HD-God SAVES some of us so that we can understand grace and mercy.

stf- Ridiculous!

Oh really? All one has to do is look around them. Who brought us to repentance? Gave us our saving knowledge?Gave us our faith? Helps us to persevere? What do we have that God has not given us?

If you can't apply that to love your enemy than you're not going to be as saved as you think you are.

I don't see where loving my enemy has anything to do with how God chooses believers. After all He chose Israel over Egypt, Jacob over Esau, Paul over Fred.

Perhaps you can explain how the mentally retarded understand grace and mercy?

All I can say is that there are mentally retarded who are saved and understand grace and there are some who are not saved. Salvation works the same way.

Love is all that matters.When are you going to UNDERSTAND that,my dear brother?

On the contrary. The holiness of God is all that matters.

29 posted on 06/19/2009 5:27:10 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
All I can say is that there are mentally retarded who are saved and understand grace and there are some who are not saved.

So, the god you believe in sends "some" mentally retarded to hell?

The holiness of God is all that matters.

There is NOTHING from God that was not created for love.Nothing!

That God hates nothing by Saint Thomas Aquinas

AS love is to good, so is hatred to evil; we wish good to them whom we love, and evil to them whom we hate. If then the will of God cannot be inclined to evil, as has been shown , it is impossible for Him to hate anything.

2. The will of God tends to things other than Himself inasmuch as, by willing and loving His own being and goodness, He wishes it to be diffused as far as is possible by communication of His likeness. This then is what God wills in beings other than Himself, that there be in them the likeness of His goodness. Therefore God wills the good of everything, and hates nothing.

4. What is found naturally in all active causes, must be found especially in the Prime Agent. But all agents in their own way love the effects which they themselves produce, as parents their children, poets their own poems, craftsmen their works. Much more therefore is God removed from hating anything, seeing that He is cause of all.*

Hence it is said: Thou lovest all things that are, and hatest nothing of the things that Thou hast made (Wisd. xi, 25).

Some things however God is said, to hate figuratively (similitudinarie), and that in two ways. The first way is this, that God, in loving things and willing their good to be, wills their evil not to be: hence He is said to have hatred of evils, for the things we wish not to be we are said to hate. So it is said: Think no evil in your hearts every one of you against his friend, and love no lying oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the Lord (Zach. viii, 17). But none of these things are effects of creation: they are not as subsistent things, to which hatred or love properly attaches. The other way is by God's wishing some greater good, which cannot be without the privation of a lesser good; and thus He is said to hate, whereas it is more properly love. Thus inasmuch as He wills the good of justice, or of the order of the universe, which cannot be without the punishment or perishing of some, He is said to hate those beings whose punishment or perishing He wills, according to the text, Esau I have hated (Malach. i, 3); and, Thou hatest all who work Iniquity, thou wilt destroy all who utter falsehood: the man of blood and deceit the Lord shall abominate (Ps. v, 7).*

30 posted on 06/19/2009 5:50:26 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Historians have called John Calvin the virtual founder of America.

In less than 300 years the gates of hell has prevailed in what you think John Calvin founded.

The idea of false freedom and liberty has provided abortion ,pornography etc.. protected by the constitution in the name of freedom.

I have asked you numerous times if you think abortion and euthanasia are from the devil and therefore evil?

Why is it you never answer?

31 posted on 06/19/2009 5:59:38 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
I have asked you numerous times if you think abortion and euthanasia are from the devil and therefore evil? Why is it you never answer?

Stamp your foot a little louder. I can't hear you.

Perhaps you think I've ignored your overly-obvious question because, after these months of discussing things with you, I (and anyone with two eyes) know where this is going.

And here's the answer from the Westminster Confession of Faith, securely founded on Scripture, per the proofs at the site...

OF GOD'S ETERNAL DECREE
Chapter III

I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;[4] yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.[5]

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels[6] are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.[7]

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.[8]

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[10] and all to the praise of His glorious grace.[11]

VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16]

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.[17]

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18] that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21]

God is all holy; He "is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

And yet we have the fact that Satan is a created being, created by God who, like all creation, is under the firm control of the Triune God. Is this simple to understand? Nope. Can any alternatives make sense Scripturally or logically or spiritually? Nope, again.

As the Heidelberg Catechism says...

Question 32. But why art thou called a Christian?

(a) Answer: Because I am a member of Christ by faith, (b) and thus am partaker of his anointing; (c) that so I may confess his name, (d) and present myself a living sacrifice of thankfulness to him: (e) and also that with a free and good conscience I may fight against sin and Satan in this life (f) and afterwards I reign with him eternally, over all creatures. (g)

(a) Acts 11:26 (b) 1 Cor.6:15 (c) 1 John 2:27, Acts 2:17 (d) Matt.10:32, Rom.10:10, Mark 8:38 (e) Rom.12:1, 1 Pet.2:5, 1 Pet.2:9, Rev.5:8, Rev.5:10, Rev.1:6 (f) 1 Pet.2:11, Rom.6:12-13, Gal.5:16-17, Eph.6:11, 1 Tim.1:18-19 (g) 2 Tim.2:12, Matt.24:34

We fight against a creature of God's own eternal purpose and design. Those who persevere and overcome Satan do so only because of the righteousness of Christ mercifully, freely imputed to them by God's grace through faith. Without this imputation of righteousness all men are lost in their original fallen state, loving the devil, disobedience and evil. But thankfully, we "have not so learned Christ."

"Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints" -- Ephesians 6:10-18

Satan is not some free-floating super villain over whom God has lost all control. That kind of world would be a mighty frightening place. Maybe that's why your church doesn't tell you the truth. Maybe it likes to keep you afraid. Resist the fear.

"As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power" -- Colossians 2:6-10


32 posted on 06/19/2009 9:42:54 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: stfassisi
"Perhaps you can explain how the mentally retarded understand grace and mercy?"

I don't want to jump into the fray too deeply and join the theology discussion... I know what I believe and I believe what I know, your mileage may vary. :) Yet I would like to speak to this particular question, if I may. I am the sister of a mentally retarded schizophrenic and I am a substitute teacher and have worked many days with the special ed kids.

I see it in my sister and I see it in the kids I've worked with. These kids have a relationship with Christ, inherantly, IMHO. I don't know if I'm of the elect, or if they are of the elect... God is glorified everytime I'm with the kids or my sister regardless!

Anyway, I'm new here and probably won't speak up much. You just touched on a subject near and dear to my heart. :)

One of my dearest friends is Baptist and poor thing grieves for my salvation because I don't solely read the KJV Bible and because of the whole predestination thing. I get enough theology debate from her! I do look forward to reading these threads as there does seem to be some intelligent discussion.

33 posted on 06/19/2009 10:29:05 PM PDT by sweet_diane (embracing Him.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Amen...Happy Birthday America and John Calvin, by the grace of God alone we are here to bear witness!


34 posted on 06/19/2009 10:47:04 PM PDT by 4Godsoloved..Hegave
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To: Alex Murphy
"Let not Geneva be forgotten or despised. Religious liberty owes it much respect... "
John Adams
Essay XIX, in The Works of John Adams 313–14 (Charles Francis Adams ed., 1851).

Cordially,

35 posted on 06/20/2009 6:50:58 AM PDT by Diamond
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To: sweet_diane
“”These kids have a relationship with Christ””

I completely agree,it is because they love in simplicity and unconditionally,it's not because they understand the theology of how grace works IMHO.

There are those who also don't know who Christ is who can be saved because of the “Law of love written on our hearts”.

The Gospel doesn't say that a person who never knew Jesus will be rejected. Christ refers to those who disbelieve Him, such as the Pharisees - when He speaks in John 3, for example. In Romans 2, Paul says that all men, even the Gentiles, have a law written on their heart. The Catechism details the “natural law” pretty well. Basically, God has written onto our hearts the Law of Love. Even a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ can “know” this law. If a person loves, He abides in Christ. 1 John makes that statement several times. We know that we can do nothing good without Christ abiding within us. Thus, when a person who has never heard of Christ can listen to that divine natural law printed inside of us - and the Spirit blows where He will. Thus, a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ CAN be saved - because they are not specifically rejecting Him - AND they ARE following His Law of Love - which is the summary of the Commandments, says James.

The Catechism refers to the Muslims - Some have not heard the truth of the Gospel, so they cannot reject it. They have been presented a scare crow by their mullahs, so they are considered invincibly ignorant (as the Catechism calls them and other such people). A person will not go to hell if he is invincibly ignorant and loves others.Some Muslims don't know Jesus Christ and the Gospel. They haven't been presented it.

When a person loves unconditionally,They have Christ abiding within them.

Thank you for your posts ,dear sister.

I will be praying for you at Adoration this week

36 posted on 06/20/2009 7:57:13 AM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Let me simplify your post....

The self professing elect Calvinists believes abortion is ordained by God,so it is God who planned the abortion, thus, making abortion ok because God needed there to be an abortion for something good to come out of it because God is incapable of there being good in the first place without the abortion

It's no surprise to me why you call John Calvin the founder of American Liberty. This type of liberty believes in the false freedom to make things like abortion and pornography legal.

This type of Liberty is a god that has failed!

37 posted on 06/20/2009 8:12:15 AM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
"I will be praying for you at Adoration this week"

I wish my great-aunt were still alive to see this :) She was a devout Catholic all her 96 years, and one of the most beautiful souls I've ever met. I'd never seen a Catholic funeral, I'm sorry I don't recall the proper name, until hers and it was a beautiful service.

Thank you for your post and your kind words. I think I'm going to enjoy these threads :)

38 posted on 06/20/2009 8:31:25 AM PDT by sweet_diane (embracing Him.)
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To: stfassisi
Let me simplify your post..

lol. Let's not.

I won't write your posts and you won't write mine.

Obviously you still can't answer my post since your only feeble response is to childishly misstate my comment.

You never have been able to answer the question that since Satan is a creature created by God, and because God hates sin, why doesn't God simply erase Satan from existence?

Here's a hint...

"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope." -- Romans 8:20

39 posted on 06/20/2009 9:51:33 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: stfassisi
John Calvin the founder of American Liberty

LOL

Suuuuure.

40 posted on 06/20/2009 9:59:20 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski
Yeah, that John Adams guy was sure a card, wasn't he?

Cordially,

41 posted on 06/20/2009 10:12:50 AM PDT by Diamond
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To: stfassisi; HarleyD; wmfights; Alex Murphy; Lord_Calvinus; blue-duncan; xzins; P-Marlowe; ...
The Gospel doesn't say that a person who never knew Jesus will be rejected. Christ refers to those who disbelieve Him, such as the Pharisees - when He speaks in John 3, for example. In Romans 2, Paul says that all men, even the Gentiles, have a law written on their heart. The Catechism details the "natural law" pretty well. Basically, God has written onto our hearts the Law of Love. Even a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ can "know" this law. If a person loves, He abides in Christ. 1 John makes that statement several times. We know that we can do nothing good without Christ abiding within us. Thus, when a person who has never heard of Christ can listen to that divine natural law printed inside of us - and the Spirit blows where He will. Thus, a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ CAN be saved - because they are not specifically rejecting Him - AND they ARE following His Law of Love - which is the summary of the Commandments, says James.The Catechism refers to the Muslims - Some have not heard the truth of the Gospel, so they cannot reject it. They have been presented a scare crow by their mullahs, so they are considered invincibly ignorant (as the Catechism calls them and other such people). A person will not go to hell if he is invincibly ignorant and loves others.Some

Muslims don't know Jesus Christ and the Gospel. They haven't been presented it.

When a person loves unconditionally,They have Christ abiding within them

Your post reveals the pathetic emptiness of Rome's desire to elevate "natural law" to the same position as the Gospel.

Scripture tells us Jesus Christ is the truth and the way. God can certainly do what He wants, but He has told us of His ordained path to heaven - and it's not simply to "love unconditionally." It's to love the truth of Christ risen.

According to you, if a man loves his schnauzer "unconditionally," he's "got Christ abiding within him."

The only foolish people who believe that are Rome and PETA.

Even the natural law is subject to the curse of Adam. There is no neutrality in this life. There are only believers and disbelievers, by the predestining will and purpose of the Triune God.

"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corinthians 4:7

42 posted on 06/20/2009 10:37:23 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
There are only believers and disbelievers, by the predestining will and purpose of the Triune God.

That's not the Almighty God of the Bible you're describing, that's Jean Cauvin's little pocket deity, dark and sadistic (in Cauvin's own image).

43 posted on 06/20/2009 10:38:57 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Diamond
Hi, Diamond. Hope you and your family are well. I'm always happy to read your Scriptural, God-glorifying posts.

Ping to post 42.

44 posted on 06/20/2009 10:40:52 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Petronski; stfassisi
If God wants to save an unbeliever, that's His prerogative. With God, all things are possible. But it's not because that man has the “natural law” written on his heart, but because God chooses to extend mercy to that unbeliever.
"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." -- Romans 9:15-16


45 posted on 06/20/2009 11:05:58 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

That doesn’t say anything about creating souls specifically so that they be damned to hell, and there is a reason for that: the Almighty God of Scripture does not do that.

Only the evil, sadistic little pocket deity of Jean Cauvin does that.


46 posted on 06/20/2009 11:15:24 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: stfassisi; HarleyD
Perhaps you can explain how the mentally retarded understand grace and mercy?

God brings men to Him by free, unmerited grace. If He so chooses to bring to Himself men who are mentally retarded then He does that the exact same way -- by free, unmerited grace.

Love is all that matters. When are you going to UNDERSTAND that,my dear brother?

Are we instructed to hate sin?

47 posted on 06/20/2009 11:16:29 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Petronski

Are all men created by God and all men under the curse of Adam?


48 posted on 06/20/2009 11:17:25 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

The question is irrelevant.


49 posted on 06/20/2009 11:18:23 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: stfassisi; HarleyD
Hence it is said: Thou lovest all things that are, and hatest nothing of the things that Thou hast made (Wisd. xi, 25).

lol. And this is why that book is not part of the inspired word of God. The book of Wisdom, along with the other books of the Apocrypha, so obviously contradict God's word found in both Testaments.

Let's see what verse 27 of "Wisdom" 11 says...

"But thou sparest all: because they are thine, O Lord, who lovest souls." -- Widsom 11:27

Does this seem accurate to you? God "spares all?"

50 posted on 06/20/2009 11:32:46 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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