Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

History of the Reformation-How Christ restored the gospel to his church (Part 1)
Arlington Presbyterian Church ^ | October 31, 2004 | Tom Browning

Posted on 11/29/2005 7:02:26 AM PST by HarleyD

Reformation Day October 31, 1517

It was a Wednesday.

It was a Wednesday, October 31, 1517. It was not really all that much different from the thousands of other Wednesdays that had come before. It was fall, of course, and the air had cooled down and the leaves were putting on a wonderful show of color along the River Elbe on the hillside. It was nice time to be a German. It was a nice time to live in rural Germany.

The harvest had been plentiful. That is, it had been as plentiful as the white sand fields surrounding the little town of Wittenberg would allow. Still there had been a harvest and a pretty good one by their standards and it had been successfully gathered in and had been put away for the impending, German winter.

The people of Wittenberg had also begun to put away their terrible recollections and haunted memories of the plague that had come only a few years before and had destroyed so many without mercy. But even that, even that and the terrible memories associated with it had subsided somewhat into something of a distant memory. No, at that particular moment, in that particular season, on that particular day…times were good…as good as they had been in years. The plague had subsided. The harvest was in and there was talk still of Italian Columbus and his discovery of a new world in the west only two decades or so before. People, it seemed, knew more than they had ever known. The newly invented printing press has seen to that. Columbus’ story had been circulated widely and had set men’s minds to dreaming of new and better lands of opportunity and promise. Still, rural Germany was not all that bad. Their own particular province of Saxony ruled, as it was by Frederick the Wise, their crown prince and champion, was especially nice.

In particular, their little town of Wittenberg, and it was little…only 2,000 residents or so and not much more than nine-tenths of a mile long from one end to the other…set as the crown jewel of Prince Frederick’s province of Saxony had lots of reasons to count its blessings.

It had become something of the province’s chief seat and had become a pet project for their beloved crowned prince, Frederick the Wise. His chief castle and primary residence were there and he had started up a new university in the town just ten years earlier and it too was doing rather well.1 It was up to almost two hundred young students and was even beginning to enjoy something of a reputation for excellence.2 Prince Frederick had started the school to attract and keep students in his own dominions. In fact, all of the other major provinces in the empire already had universities and it had never seemed right to him to have students from his domain travel off to Leipzig or any of the surrounding provinces for their education. It especially did not seem right for them to travel away and to take their money to some other prince’s domain. Still, they knew his motivations regarding the school were not altogether mercenary. He wanted the school to add prestige to his imperial presence and they knew that adding prestige to his imperial presence also meant adding prestige to their little town. In fact, they had been genuinely encouraged by his recent move of upgrading the schools’ faculty by replacing some of its six or seven professors with some very gifted teachers from Erfurt and elsewhere. It was true that some of the professors he had added had been priests…priests attached to the Augustinian monastery at the edge of town. But that was all right. There was nothing unusual about that. The Augustinians were known for their erudition and scholarship and many of the priests in other notable cities did double duty as both pastors and as professors. Besides priests…especially monks…were inexpensive and they attracted students who wanted to study for the ministry and there were plenty of available cells at the monastery at the edge of town. One or two more monks added to an order already containing thirty other monks…was not going to hurt anything or crowd anyone.

Now, that morning, that particular Wednesday morning, October 31, 1517, one of the monks from the monastery…one of the monks brought in to teach at the university…a medium height, thin, thirty-three year old Augustinian monk…so thin that he seemed emaciated…almost skeletal…made his way from the monastery at the edge of town up to the castle and the church front door alongside. He had a large sheet of paper rolled up in his hand but other than that there was not very much else about him that would have drawn notice. Oh, he wore a monk’s robes and he had his head tonsured…that is, he had his hair cut like a bowl with a bald spot shaved on top and he was terribly thin and pale but other than that…there wasn’t very much that would have caught anyone’s eye or attention. They were used to seeing monks in Wittenberg and besides…the streets of Wittenberg were crowded and busy that Wednesday morning. There was a tremendous sense of excitement in the air that Wednesday morning because the next day was a feast day, the Day of All Saints…All Hallowed Ones Day. That meant that special preparations were being made at the Wittenberg Castle for the next day; it was a busy afternoon. All Saint’s Day at the Wittenberg castle meant that the All Saints Foundation’s collection of religious relics was going to be on display. That meant, of course, and that there would be hundred of pilgrims in town the next day to pay the admission to see them. Now they didn’t come, of course, just because they were interested in viewing ancient relics. To be sure, ancient relics were interesting…what person in their right mind would not pay to see the mummified thumb of Jesus’ grandmother, St. Anne.

Such artifacts aroused a sort of morbid curiosity.

But that was not the principal reason people stood in line and paid money to see the relics at Wittenberg. No, the reason they stood in line and paid to visit the relics at Wittenberg on All Saint’s Day was because viewing them provided a wonderful opportunity for the citizens of Saxony to obtain an official papal indulgence or pardon for their sins.

Now the reason they thought such indulgences were necessary was because that had been taught that Christ’s death was not sufficient to remove the temporal punishment due their sins. Oh, they knew and believed that Christ had secured their eternal forgiveness but they also knew and believed that they had to pay a temporal punishment of their sins. That is, they believed that God required them to pay for the sins they had committed in the flesh. Somehow, and they were never quite sure about how all that worked itself out, they knew that Christ had taken care of the eternal punishment of their sins but that the temporal punishment of their sin had to be satisfied either by suffering or by doing good works or by doing works of penance sufficient to offset their sin or by spending a time of purification in that mysterious and terrifying place called purgatory. Of course, they knew purgatory was not the same thing as hell but they also knew that it was not a place anyone would willingly want to experience. They certainly had no intention of experiencing it if they could avoid it. Indulgences offered them that chance.

Of course, they believed and accepted the doctrine of purgatory and why shouldn’t they? Only heretics denied the existence of purgatory…men like John Huss and John Wycliffe and the church had certainly taken care of them. Besides, the doctrine of purgatory had been the teaching of the church straight along since the days of Jesus, hadn’t it? All of their priests and bishops alike believed it and taught it, didn’t they? Even the Holy Father, Leo X taught it and hadn’t he provided for their benefit, as the keeper and dispenser of the Treasury of Merits of the Saints, some practical ways, really convenient and fairly inexpensive ways to avoid purgatory and all of the awful grief of its purifying flames? Wasn’t that what days like All Saint’s Day at Wittenberg were all about? A person could go up to the castle, pay a few coins, go in and view some extraordinary relics, contemplate his sin, determine to turn over a new leaf and come out afterwards with an official document stamped and sealed by the mother church itself, guaranteeing forgiveness from all the temporal punishment of their sins both now and more importantly again in the day of their death.

What a blessing that was.

What a wonderful and caring pope, Pope Leo was.

What a wonderful and caring crowned prince…Prince Frederick was.

To think that he was willing to provide such a wonderful collection of relics right there in their own community…that he was willing to maintain them…to protect them and to constantly add to them and to so graciously make them available to all his subjects and even to the subjects of other provinces on this one day each year when harvest was in and the weather was still good was just too kind.

It was good to be German.

It was good to live in a nice, quiet little town like Wittenberg in the German province of Saxony in a confederation of provinces known as the Holy Roman Empire on the Wednesday before All Saints Day, October 31, 1517. It was good. It was quiet. It was peaceful. There was hardly any trouble of any kind…I mean except for the plague and except for the occasional war and except for ignorance and poverty and the encroaching Muslims in the east it was a pretty good time to be alive.

But the thin emaciated, 33 year-old skeletal monk…the one with the tonsured hair…the one teaching Bible at their university…the one living in the monastery at the edge of town…the one who was always was so solemn and so serious and who sometimes begged for bread by singing on their front stoops…the one who had a large piece of paper rolled up in his hand and who was weaving his way through the crowded streets up to the castle and to the large wooden door of the church alongside was about to change all that.

He was about to fasten the piece of paper in his hand to the front door of the castle church. That was all he intended to do. He wanted to fasten a piece of paper to the church door and start a discussion among scholars about a few things that troubled him…a few things that troubled him about indulgences and the practice of selling indulgences and what allowing them to be sold meant in relation to the sacrament of penance and to the gospel. But what he was actually about to do was to start a revolution that would alter, forever, the course of human history. He was about to prick the most vulnerable spot on the richest and most powerful kingdom on earth. He was about to prick Achilles’ heel of the Roman Catholic with the point of his pen.

His name was Martin Luther. It was October 31, 1517 and he was about to start the Protestant Reformation.

Let’s pray.

Our Great God and King,

You who turn the heart of men to the truth and turn the hearts of kings to do your will, we bless and praise you this day especially for restoring the gospel to your church in the Reformation. We thank you for men like Luther and Calvin and Knox and Zwingli and we long for you to again your gospel to its proper place of prominence in men’s hearts and minds. Would you be so gracious as to take these humble lessons…these few meditations and thoughts and use them this morning to stir our hearts to worship and magnify your name and your faithful stewardship of both your church and of human history? Help us to see your hand as it guided providence and guided men smitten by the gospel in order that we too might come to love gospel and proclaim your great work in this place. This we pray in Jesus name, Amen.

Brothers and sisters, it is Reformation Day…rejoice and be glad.

This morning we are starting a new study called the History of the Reformation. It will not be a particularly long or difficult study, only some three months or so. It will a little different than our normal Bible exposition studies. By that, I mean it will be more theological, biographical and historical than what we usually do on Sunday morning. But I still think it can be helpful. I trust our study will give you some new insight into the kindness and work of God in human history and that it will introduce you to a few of the men and women God used to restore the gospel to its proper place. It seems to me the timing is right. We have just finished a lengthy study of Romans and it is after all, Reformation Day, which is named in honor of the day Luther posted the Ninety-Five Theses to the castle church door in Wittenberg.

Now there is a sense in which that particular day, October 31, 1517 was not really the start of the Reformation at all. There is a sense in which the Reformation had been underfoot for some time when Luther nailed his paper to the door there in Wittenberg. Some say it had actually started with Wycliffe or with Huss, a hundred years earlier. Some say, it hard started with St. Anselm in the twelfth century as he worked out the notion of a forensic or legal justification. Some say it started with St. Augustine in the fifth century when he fought it out with Pelagius over the inherent sinfulness of man. Still October 31st is the day we celebrate as Reformation Day and I thought I might take a few minutes this morning and explain to you why that is.

Now to do that I need to talk about I need to talk for a minute or two about the three or four different, seemingly unrelated things.

All right then, first the political world in which Martin Luther lived in 1517. Now the first thing you ought to know is that Martin Luther lived in the German province of Saxony which was one of the provinces that made up a confederation of lands called the Holy Roman Empire and the first thing that you ought to know about the Holy Roman Empire is that it was wasn’t and by that I mean it was not holy…it was not even Roman.

It was principally German. Although from time to time it included other lands and other areas it was always principally German.

It had first been created by Charlemagne in 800 AD some 700 years earlier.

Charlemagne created an empire out of the various fractured states of Western Europe. The pope of Charlemagne’s day recognizing that Charlemagne controlled the political scene crowned him the emperor and protector of Christian. The Pope’s reasoning was twofold. First, he wanted Charlemagne to protect Rome from invading Muslim’s and secondly he wanted to inject himself into the politics of Europe. If he could get future kings to depend upon the church’s recognition, it could perhaps influence who became emperor and how the empire responded to the church.

So you can see the Holy Roman Empire was called the Holy Roman Empire simply because the Emperor was recognized and crowned by the Holy Roman Church. So for the next seven hundred years, something of a battle ensued. The Pope claimed spiritual dominion over Europe and the Emperor claimed temporal dominion. Sometimes the interests of the Pope and the interest of the Emperor put them in terrible conflict with each other. Naturally, the size of the empire and the power of the emperor varied from emperor to emperor. By 1356, the emperor was selected by electors. That is, several of the crown princes or bishops of Europe were chosen to “elect” a new Roman emperor whenever the old one died. That meant, of course, that the electors held enormous power. If an emperor’s descendant was powerful enough he could force the electors to elect him. If he were not very powerful, the electors could choose an emperor that was more amenable to advancing their own personal agendas. Electors were often influenced by money.

Frederick the Wise Wittenberg I bring all that up because Frederick the Wise, the crowned prince of Saxony was one of the seven electors of the Holy Roman Empire in 1517. He was very powerful and because he was an older man and had been the crowned prince of Saxony for awhile he would later be able to demand certain protections for Luther that Luther otherwise would not have had. For example, when the Pope Leo wanted Luther to be shipped off to Rome to be tried for heresy, Frederick the Wise demanded that Luther be tried in Germany.

Now there were other electors but the rest of them are not very important to our story this morning. However, one is important and his name is Prince Albert of Brandenburg. Prince Albert was also a crowned prince of Germany but he was not an elector. What he was, however, was a bishop. He had purchased his office from the pope. In fact, he had purchased two of them, one at Halberstadt and one at Magdeburg. But he wanted one more. He wanted to be the Bishop of Mainz, or I should say the Archbishop of Mainz, because he knew if he could obtain that office he would automatically become an elector. Now Albert faced three obstacles. The first problem that he faced was that canon law did not permit a man to stack up offices. In other words, a man was not allowed to be the bishop of more than one see or diocese or area at a time. The second problem that he faced was that he was only twenty-four and was thus too young to be a bishop in the first place. The third problem he faced was that the Diocese of Mainz was bankrupt. You see whenever a new bishop was chosen the Diocese had to pay a large sum of money to the papacy and the Diocese of Mainz had had three archbishops in ten years. Each of the three previous men had died prematurely so the Diocese had not had enough time to recover all the money it had paid to Rome.

Think of it this way. Imagine that when this church decided to choose Tom Ferrell as its pastor the church had to pay the North Texas Presbytery a sum of money. Let’s say the presbytery responded like this, “We see you want Mr. Ferrell and he is q good man and we are willing to let you have if you send us…say $50,000.” And let’s say the church responded by saying, “Well that is lot of money but we expect he will be with us a long time and he is a good man, so yes we will do that.”

Then let’s say that Tom Ferrell died unexpectedly and the church decided to call John Duke as pastor and the presbytery responded by saying, “Yes, well he is a lot more sinful than Mr. Ferrell but alright. That will cost you $75,000.” Then let’s say that the church responded by saying, “Well that’s a lot of money but we want him so I guess we will have to do what we have to do.” But the John too died unexpectedly and then the church decided to call that wonderful and winsome character Tom Browning but the presbytery responded by saying, “Well we know the depth of this character’s character and we know the depth of his depravity and you can have him but it is going to cost you $200,000.”

You see the question at point becomes, “Just how much can a church take?” Well that is pretty much what happened at Mainz. The diocese was busted…flat out broke…still they needed a bishop…but their bishop because of the prominence of their church’s position and size was more than a bishop. He was an archbishop.

Now there was a sense in which that provided a wonderful opportunity for Albert of Brandenburg. All he had to do was come up with the money. So Albert hired the Fugger Banking House of Germany to negotiate the office for him. They reported back to him that the office could be had for 12,000 gold ducats and the reason for that amount was that there had been twelve apostles. Albert counter offered 7,000 gold ducats because there were after all only seven deadly sins. Eventually, they settled on 10,000 gold ducts presumably because there were after all, Ten Commandments. Only Albert did not have 10,000 gold ducats of his own. So he borrowed the money from the Fugger Bank after he obtained from Rome permission to sell indulgences to raise the money to offset his debt. Now this is what Rome agreed to. He could have the office and he could see indulgences as long as after the debt was paid half of the money raised were to go to Rome to help pay for building St. Peter’s Basillica.

Now, we’ll talk about that a lot more next week but the main thing I want you to see is that meant there were two electors selling indulgences. One of them was Frederick the Wise who only sold his indulgences once a year at the Feast of All Saints and the other was Albert of Brandenburg who was also the Archbishop of Mainz. Albert was selling his indulgences every day and he was selling them aggressively and for the most part fairly cheaply.

That put them in conflict and made them competitors. Of course, Frederick the Wise was offended and forbade the selling of Albert’s indulgences in his province. But because their provinces butted up to each other, it was very easy for Frederick’s subjects to slip over the border to Albert’s province and purchase whatever they needed.

Now keeping that in mind, let’s talk a minute about the Roman Catholic’s sacramental theology in 1517. The Catholic Church held to seven sacraments. They were: baptism, the Lord’s Supper, confirmation, penance, extreme unction, orders and matrimony. The one that concerns us this morning is penance. The Catholic Church instituted the sacrament of penance based upon a mistranslation of the Greek word “to repent”. It provided an opportunity for a sinner to be restored after having made shipwreck of his faith. You see medieval catholic theology viewed grace almost as if it were a substance. When a Christian committed a sin, some of that grace conferred at baptism was lost. When a Christian committed a mortal sin, murder or adultery or something to that effect, all of their grace was lost…something like water running out of a bathtub. The Sacrament of Penance allowed that grace to be restored.

Penance itself was made up of three parts: contrition…being sorry for your sin, confession…telling someone like a priest about your sin, and satisfaction…doing something tangible to demonstrate the reality of having turned away from sin. Now initially, satisfaction involved works of mercy or charity and the like. A person could obtain satisfaction by giving money to the poor or caring for the poor or defending the faith or going on a pilgrimage, etc.

The idea of pilgrimages became especially important during the time of the Crusades. In fact, the whole idea of dealing with the temporal satisfaction of sin came to the forefront during the Crusades and the church began to offer plenary indulgences to any man who would enlist in the service of the church to go to the middle east and help fight for and secure the Holy Land and all of its holy sites for the church. Later, opportunity was offered to those who could not go to help pay the way for others to go and with that idea the notion of indulgences was born.

You can see then how indulgences became a way to pay money to deal with the temporal satisfaction of sin. At first, the church was very careful offering indulgences only every hundred years or so. But as the church began to need money and especially as the church came under increasing pressure from Muslims in the east, it began to sell indulgences more often.

Now in the hands of a responsible man like Frederick the Wise, selling indulgences provided revenue for public works projects and the like. It did not make the theology right but there were few if any of the terrible abuses that were to come later. In the hands of a younger man like Albert of Brandenburg the selling of indulgences reached new and terrible lows.

In fact, Albert brought in the best, or perhaps I should say the worst, salesman he could find to sell his indulgences. His name was John Tetzel and he was an awful man. There was almost nothing that he wouldn’t do, almost nothing he wouldn’t say to get the money. He became famous for this little ditty,

To which critics responded,

Now you might be asking yourself, “Why did they think an indulgence was able to provide satisfaction for temporal sin?”

They believed that was possible because the believed in something called the Treasury of Merit. The Treasury of Merit was a collection of merit secured in heaven and made up of all of the good works of all of the saints of all of the ages. You see the theology of the medieval church recognized that some saints were so good that they did more than was required in their case to provide satisfaction for their sins and the church believed that no good work was ever wasted or forgotten and that the extra merit provided by the good works of saints was “treasured up” in the Treasury of Merit and that the Pope could apply the value of such works to other sinners as he saw fit. In other words, he had the power to “impute” to an undeserving sinner the benefit of the Treasury of Merit if he chose.

Now those of you who were raised in catholic backgrounds will especially appreciate that, I think.

Now the benefit of that imputation occurred whenever a person obtained an indulgence. The excess good works that were stored up there were applied to the sinner and satisfaction for the temporal punishment of his sin was obtained and the long and the short of that meant that such sinners escaped the purifying fires of purgatory altogether.

Listen for example to a section of a sermon preached by Tetzel appealing to his listeners to purchase an indulgence for their parents suffering in purgatory. You should know that all who confess and in penance put alms into the coffer according to the counsel of the confessor, will obtain complete remission of all their sins. Why are you then standing there? Run for the salvation of your souls! Be as careful and concerned for the salvation of your souls as you are for your temporal goods, which you seek both day and night. Seek the Lord while he may be found and while he is near. Don’t you hear the voices of your wailing dead parents and others who say, Have mercy upon me, have mercy upon me, because we are in severe punishment and pain. From this you could redeem us with small alms and yet you do not want to do so. Open your ears as the father says to the son and the mother to the daughter… We have created you, fed you, cared for you, and left you our temporal goods. Why then are you so cruel and harsh that you do not want to save us, though it only takes a little? You let us lie in flames so that we only slowly come to the promised glory. You may have letters which let you have, once in life and in the hour of death...full remission of the punishment which belongs to sin. Oh, those of you with vows, you usurers, robbers, murderers, and criminals - Now is the time to hear the voice of God. He does not want the death of the sinner rather he wants that the sinner be converted and live. Convert yourselves…3

You can see, I think, how such blatant greed made good men like Frederick cringe. You can especially see, I think, how it made a good man like Martin Luther cringe and so Luther a young thirty-three year old monk wrote up Ninety-Five Thesis regarding the selling and the nature of indulgences not because he wanted to start a revolution but rather because he wanted to help stop the bleeding of the poor…because he wanted to stop such awful abuse.

Now Luther wrote his Ninety-Five Theses in Latin and he did that because he wanted it to be an academic or ecclesiastical discussion. He had no intention of making it public. But within two weeks, his Ninety Five Theses had been translated into German and circulated all across Germany.

Luther it seems had hit a nerve.

Listen to what Roland Bainton says:

I like that, “He was startled to hear the clanging of a bell.”

Now the ringing of that bell signaled the start of the Reformation. Praise be to God…it rings still.

Let’s pray.

1 Martin Brecht, Martin Luther: His Road to Reformation 1483-1521, translated by James L. Schaaf, (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1985), 118. Breacht writes: “Since Leipzig lay in Albertine Saxony, Electoral Saxony did not have its own university after the territory was partitioned. At that time it was a necessity for a developing territorial state to have its own institution of higher learning. That was why Brandenburg in 1506 had established the University of Frankfurt on the Oder. There is evidence as early as 1493 that Frederick the Wise had plans to establish a university. On 6 July 1502 he obtained from King Maximilian a privilege for the establishment of a full university in Wittenberg with the right to grant degrees. On 24 August Frederick and his brother John invited attendance at the opening of the university on 18 October. Papal confirmation of the university was not forthcoming until 1507. That is noteworthy in itself for until then all universities had begun with a papal privilege, while Frederick was at first content with an imperial one.”

2 Mark Knoll, “The Earliest Protestants and the Reformation of Education,” Westminster Theological Journal, 43:1 Fall 1980, 102-103. Success is a somewhat relative term based upon modern standards. The school probably ran around a hundred to two hundred students in 1517. I base that upon Noll’s numbers in the following paragraph and from Brecht’s book cited below. “The cumulative effect of these opinions spelled disaster for schools in the early Reformation period. Statistics are hard to come by for the lower schools, but the sad plight of the universities reflected a general decline in education throughout Germany and Switzerland. Martin Luther posted his 95 Theses with their attack on the Roman Catholic concept of Christianity in 1517. When he entered the University of Erfurt in 1501, it had an enrollment of 2,000 students; by 1529 it was down to 20. The University of Leipzig, an institution of comparable size in 1500, was down to slightly under 200 students by 1525 and under 100 by 1529. Even Luther’s own University of Wittenberg had dropped from 250 to 173 students in the period 1525 to 1529. The situation could have been even worse in the lower schools. At least the universities continued to exist. But many of the local schools, stripped of financial support and of community confidence, had simply vanished from sight.” See also: Martin Brecht, Martin Luther: His Road to Reformation 1483-1521, translated by James L. Schaaf, (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1985), 119. “At the beginning of Luther\ time, between 184 and 221 students matriculated annually. After 1517 the number increased by leaps and bounds.”

3 Roland Bainton, Here I Stand: A Life of Martin Luther, (New York: Abigdon Press, 1950), 78.

4 Ibid, 83.


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; History; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: churchhistory; history; protestants; reformation; selectivehistory
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100101-104 next last
To: HarleyD
I would venture to guess Eastern Orthodox do not believe in the sales of indulgences.
Here's a news flash: neither does Latin Christianity:
Whereas the power of conferring Indulgences was granted by Christ to the Church; and she has, even in the most ancient times, used the said power, delivered unto her of God; the sacred holy Synod teaches, and enjoins, that the use of Indulgences, for the Christian people most salutary, and approved of by the authority of sacred Councils, is to be retained in the Church; and It condemns with anathema those who either assert, that they are useless; or who deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them. In granting them, however, It desires that, in accordance with the ancient and approved custom in the Church, moderation be observed; lest, by excessive facility, ecclesastical discipline be enervated. And being desirous that the abuses which have crept therein, and by occasion of which this honourable name of Indulgences is blasphemed by heretics, be amended and corrected, It ordains generally by this decree, that all evil gains for the obtaining thereof,--whence a most prolific cause of abuses amongst the Christian people has been derived,--be wholly abolished. But as regards the other abuses which have proceeded from superstition, ignorance, irreverence, or from what soever other source, since, by reason of the manifold corruptions in the places and provinces where the said abuses are committed, they cannot conveniently be specially prohibited; It commands all bishops, diligently to collect, each in his own church, all abuses of this nature, and to report them in the first provincial Synod; that, after having been reviewed by the opinions of the other bishops also, they may forthwith be referred to the Sovereign Roman Pontiff, by whose authority and prudence that which may be expedient for the universal Church will be ordained; that this the gift of holy Indulgences may be dispensed to all the faithful, piously, holily, and incorruptly.

Council of Trent, 25th Session


If you were to take a look at this link, you will see the current indulgenced activities. Please note that none of these indulgenced activities involves money in any way. Take a look at the particular indulgenced activities. Which of those activities, if done in an attitude of reverence, is going to do anything but bring a person closer to God?

Also, if you were to take a look at the "norms" for indulgences (link on the above page), you'll note that to gain a plenary indulgence, "It is further required that all attachment to sin, even venial sin, be absent."

Now answer me this, separated brethren, according to protestant theologies, if a person is baptized, has confessed all sins (according to the manner appropriate within your particular denomination), and has no "attachment to sin, even venial sin," then tell me where that person is going anyway?

That's the trick with indulgences that protestants can't seem to understand: in the doing of the indulgenced activity with the proper disposition (a requirement to gain the indulgence), the person grows in personal holiness as their concupiscence decreases.


As to the abuses, which brought on the Tridentine degree discussed earlier:

The problem with so many protestants is that they are seemingly unable to understand that Christ's Church is, at times, afflicted with horrible stewards.

For example, their judgement against the righteous doctrine of indulgences confuses the correct doctrine with times where the doctrine has been abused. Luther, frankly, was right in condemning the sale of indulgences. Where he went wrong was condemning the doctrine of indulgences that was abused through their sale.

Even the Church acknowledges that some of her ministers were misguided. For example, the Catholic Encyclopedia's entry on Leo X, the author of the abuses that spurred Luther's actions, says the following:

The only possible verdict on the pontificate of Leo X is that it was unfortunate for the Church. Sigismondo Tizio, whose devotion to the Holy See is undoubted, writes truthfully: "In the general opinion it was injurious to the Church that her Head should delight in plays, music, the chase and nonsense, instead of paying serious attention to the needs of his flock and mourning over their misfortunes". Von Reumont says pertinently–"Leo X is in great measure to blame for the fact that faith in the integrity and merit of the papacy, in its moral and regenerating powers, and even in its good intentions, should have sunk so low that men could declare extinct the old true spirit of the Church."

This is the problem with so many protestants; it's much easier to condemn apostolic Christianity and replace it with heresy than it is to understand what the true doctrine is. As a result, they condemn what they "think" is "Catholic heresy" without actually understanding the principles of the faith handed down by the apostles.

61 posted on 11/29/2005 1:25:58 PM PST by markomalley (Vivat Iesus!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD; Campion; jo kus

"If you confirm the Eastern Orthodox position according to Wikipedia to be correct and the Roman Catholic position seems to be correct, I would respectfully disagree that these are similar views."

HD, I didn't say it was correct, I said it was "OK". It is right as far as it goes. I also said I was not fully familiar with the Roman Catholic theology of confession so couldn;t say very much about it. Based on what I do know, however, and half my family is Roman Catholic, two cousins are priests, I think its the same sacrament save around the edges so to speak. With all due respect, HD, you don't believe that confession is a sacrament so how in heaven's name would you presume to declare that Orthodox and Roman Catholic confession are different sacraments? Because of your reading of a couple of snips from an on line encyclopedia? You have a rather more authoritative source right at your finger tips, your Orthodox and Latin Rite correspondents here on FR. Why won't you believe us? We live this stuff, HD.

As for indulgences, no, the Orthodox Church does not endorse the sale of indulgences, in fact it doesn't accept the concept of the Treasury of Merit or indulgences in any form. My understanding is that the Roman Church itself condemns the sale of indulgences, at least now and that the popular concept that indulgences amount to "time off in Purgatory" is not a correct statement of Roman Catholic theology. Frankly, I think the whole idea of indulgences and the Treasury of Merit are just plain wrong, but then again, I'm not a Latin Rite Christian.



62 posted on 11/29/2005 1:42:57 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: gscc
Just asking - can one still obtain indulgences to this day from the RC Church?

Of course. You don't "buy" them, though. (Saying you get them "from the church" is a bit misleading. It's not like you get a certificate from the Vatican or anything.)

I received one the other day (which I gave to my deceased father, or any other of my deceased relatives who might need it) by (1) going to confession; (2) receiving Holy Communion; (3) saying an Our Father and a Hail Mary for the intentions of the Pope; and (4) the actual indulgenced act itself, which was saying the rosary with my family.

Total monetary cost: $0, unless you count the gasoline to get to church. Total spiritual benefits for all parties involved: priceless.

63 posted on 11/29/2005 1:59:23 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
Historically if you pay a sum to the Roman Church you could save someone from hell.

Indulgences "save" people from purgatory, not hell. Please try to understand the difference. How many times do we have to keep repeating this?.

And indulgences aren't "sold" or "given away" in the confessional, either.

64 posted on 11/29/2005 2:01:53 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD

Harley, I have an idea. I think you just plain don't understand what an "indulgence" is. Why don't you tell us what you think an indulgence does, according to Catholic belief?


65 posted on 11/29/2005 2:05:28 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: Campion

And where in Scripture do I find out how to obtain these frequent flyer miles?


66 posted on 11/29/2005 2:31:52 PM PST by gscc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 63 | View Replies]

To: gscc
And where in Scripture do I find out how to obtain these frequent flyer miles?

Right next to the definitions of the words "Trinity," "Incarnation," "common grace", "imputed righteousness", "altar call", and the commandment to conduct Bible studies on Wednesday nights. It's a chapter over from the criteria used to select the New Testament canon.

In other words, it's a development of church tradition, like a whole lot of the things you do.

67 posted on 11/29/2005 3:09:52 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: Pyro7480

You mean you don't like the say "1 Our Father and 3 Hail Mary". (Sarcasm)


68 posted on 11/29/2005 3:26:30 PM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: gscc
And where in Scripture do I find out how to obtain these frequent flyer miles?

Cute.


Foreword

1. Presented in the first place are three grants of indulgences, intended to serve as a reminder to the faithful to infuse with the Christian spirit the actions that go to make up their daily lives and to strive in the ordering of their lives toward the perfection of charity.

2. The first and second grants are a resume of many given in times past; the third, on the other hand, is something altogether new but most suited to the present time when, with the mitigation of the law of fast and abstinence, it is more than ever imperative that penance be practiced in other ways.

3. The three grants are truly general in character, each of them comprising many works of the same kind. However, not all such works are enriched with indulgences, but those only which are performed in a particular manner and spirit.

An example in point is the first grant, which reads as follows: "A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful who, in the performance of their duties and in bearing the trials of life, raise their mind with humble confidence to God, adding-even if only mentally -- some pious invocation."

By virtue of this grant those acts only are indulgenced, by which the faithful, while performing their duties and patiently suffering the trials of life, raise their mind to God in the manner indicated.

Acts of this kind, considering the frailty of human nature, are not frequent.

But should anyone be so zealous and fervent as to make such acts frequently in the course of a day, he would justly merit -- over and above a copious increase of grace -- a fuller remission of the punishment due for sin and he would in his charity be able to come to the aid of the souls in purgatory so much the more generously.

The above observations apply with practically the same force to the second and third grants.

4. The three grants are fully in harmony with the Gospel and with the teachings of the II Vatican Council. To illustrate this briefly for the benefit of the faithful, each of the three grants is followed by citations from the Sacred Scriptures and from the Acts of the Council.

First General Grant A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful who, in the performance of their duties and in bearing the trials of life, raise their mind with humble confidence to God, adding even if only mentally -- some pious invocation.

This first grant is intended to serve as an incentive to the faithful to put into practice the commandment of Christ that "they must always pray and not lose heart" and at the same time as a reminder so to perform their respective duties as to preserve and strengthen their union with Christ.

Mt 7, 7-8: Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened.

Mt 26, 41: Watch and pray, that you may not enter into temptation.

Lk 21, 34-36: But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be overburdened ... with the cares of this life.... Watch, then, praying at all times.

Acts 2, 42: And they continued steadfastly in the teaching of the Apostles and in the communion of the breaking of the bread and in the prayers.

Rom 12, 12: Rejoicing in hope, . . . patient in tribulation, persevering in prayer.

1 Cor 10, 31: Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or do anything else, do all for the glory of God.

Eph 6, 18: With all prayer and supplication pray at all times in the Spirit, and therein be vigilant in all perseverance and supplication.

Col 3, 17: Whatever you do in word or in work, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Col 4, 2: Be assiduous in prayer, being wakeful therein with thanksgiving.

1 Thes 5, 17-18: Pray without ceasing. In all things give thanks.

II Vatican Council, Dogmatic Const. on the Church, n. 41: Finally, all Christ's faithful, whatever be the conditions, duties and circumstances of their lives -- and indeed through all these -- will daily increase in holiness, if they receive all things with faith from the hand of their heavenly Father and if they cooperate with the divine will. In this temporal service, they will manifest to all men the love with which God loved the world.

II Vatican Council, Decree on the Apostolate of the Laity, n. 4: This life of intimate union with Christ in the Church is nourished by spiritual aids.... These are to be used by the laity in such a way that, while correctly fulfilling their secular duties in the ordinary conditions of life, they do not separate union with Christ from their life but rather performing their work according to God's will they grow in that union.... Neither family concerns nor other secular affairs should be irrelevant to their spiritual life, in keeping with the words of the Apostle, "Whatever you do in word or work, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God the Father through him."

II Vatican Council, Pastoral Const. on the Church in the Modern World, n. 43: This split between the faith which many profess and their daily lives deserves to be counted among the more serious errors of our age.... Therefore, let there be no false opposition between professional and social activities on the one hand, and religious life on the other.... Christians should rather rejoice that, following the example of Christ who worked as an artisan, they are free to give proper exercise to all their earthly activities and to their humane, domestic, professional, social and technical enterprises by gathering them into one vital synthesis with religious values, under whose supreme direction all things are harmonized unto God's glory.

Second General Grant

A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful, who in a spirit of faith and mercy give of themselves or of their goods to serve their brothers in need.

This second grant is intended to serve as an incentive to the faithful to perform more frequent acts of charity and mercy, thus following the example and obeying the command of Christ Jesus.

However, not all works of charity are thus indulgenced, but only those which "serve their brothers in need," in need, for example, of food or clothing for the body or of instruction or comfort for the soul.

Mt 25, 35-36. 40: For I was hungry and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger and you took me in; naked and you covered me; sick and you visited me; I was in prison and you came to me.... Amen I say to you, as long as you did it for one of these, the least of my brethren, you did it for me.

Jn 13, 34-35: A new commandment I give you, that you love one another: that as I have loved you, you also love one another. By this will all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.

Rom 12, 8. 10-11. 13: He who gives, in simplicity; . . . he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.... Love one another with fraternal charity, anticipating one another with honor. Be not slothful in zeal; be fervent in spirit, serving the Lord.... Share the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality.

I Cor 13, 3: And if I distribute all my goods to feed the poor, . . . yet do not have charity, it profits me nothing.

Gal 6, 10: While we have time, let us do good to all men, but especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

Eph 5, 2: Walk in love, as Christ also loved us.

1 Thes 4, 9: You yourselves have learned from God to love one another.

Heb 13, 1: Let brotherly love abide in you.

Jas 1, 27: Religion pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to give aid to orphans and widows in their tribulation and to keep oneself unspotted from this world.

1 Pt 1, 22: Now that your obedience to charity has purified your souls for a brotherly love that is sincere, love one another heartily and intensely.

1 Pt 3, 8-9: Finally, be all like-minded, compassionate, lovers of the brethren, merciful, humble; not rendering evil for evil, or abuse for abuse, but contrariwise, blessing; for unto this were you called that you might inherit blessing.

2 Pt 1, 5. 7: Do you accordingly strive diligently to supply . . . your piety with fraternal love, your fraternal love with charity.

1 Jn 3, 17-18: He who has the goods of this world and sees his brother in need and closes his heart to him, how does the love of God abide in him? My dear children, let us not love in word, neither with the tongue, but in deed and in truth.

II Vatican Council, Decree on the Apostolate of the Laity, n. 8: Wherever there are people in need of food and drink, clothing, housing, medicine, employment, education; wherever men lack the facilities necessary for living a truly human life or are afflicted with serious distress or illness or suffer exile or imprisonment, there christian charity should seek them out and find them, console them with great solicitude and help them with appropriate relief.... In order that the exercise of charity on this scale may be unexceptionable in appearance as well as in fact, it is altogether necessary to consider in one's neighbor the image of God in which he has been created, and also Christ the Lord to whom is really offered whatever is given to a needy person.

II Vatican Council, Decree on the Apostolate of the Laity, n. 31c: Since the works of charity and mercy express the most striking testimony of the Christian life, apostolic formation should lead also to the performance of these works so that the faithful may learn from childhood on to have compassion for their brethren and to be generous in helping those in need.

II Vatican Council, Pastoral Const. on the Church in the Modern World, n. 93: Mindful of the Lord's saying: "by this will all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another," Christians cannot yearn for anything more ardently than to serve the men of the modern world with mounting generosity and success.... Now the Father wills that in all men we recognize Christ our brother and love him effectively in word and in deed.

Third General Grant

A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful, who in a spirit of penance voluntarily deprive themselves of what is licit and pleasing to them.

This third grant is intended to move the faithful to bridle their passions and thus learn to bring their bodies into subjection and to conform themselves to Christ in his poverty and suffering.

But self-denial will be more precious, if it is united to charity, according to the teaching of St. Leo the Great: "Let us give to virtue what we refuse to self-indulgence. Let what we deny ourselves by fast -- be the refreshment of the poor."

Lk 9, 23: If anyone wishes to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Lk 13, 5: Unless you repent, you will all perish in the same manner (see 13, 3).

Rom 8, 13: But if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live.

Rom 8, 17: Provided, however, we suffer with him that we may also be glorified with him.

1 Cor 9, 25-27: And everyone in a contest abstains from all things, and they indeed to receive a perishable crown, but we an imperishable. I, therefore, so run as not without a purpose; I so fight as not beating the air; but I chastise my body and bring it into subjection.

2 Cor 4, 10: Always bearing about in our body the dying of Jesus, so that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest in our bodily frame.

2 Tm 2, 11-12: This saying is true: If we have died with him, we shall also live with him; if we endure, we shall also reign with him.

Ti 2, 12: In order that rejecting . . . worldly lusts, we may live temperately and justly and piously in this world.

1 Pt 4, 13: Partakers of the sufferings of Christ, rejoice that you may also rejoice with exultation in the revelation of his glory.

II Vatican Council, Decree on Priestly Training, n. 9: With a particular concern should they be so formed in priestly obedience, in a simple way of life and in the spirit of self-denial that they are accustomed to give up willingly even those things that are permitted but are not expedient, and to conform themselves to Christ crucified.

II Vatican Council, Dogmatic Const. on the Church, n. 10: But the faithful, in virtue of their royal priesthood, join in the offering of the Eucharist. They likewise exercise that priesthood in receiving the sacraments, in prayer and thanksgiving, in the witness of a holy life, and by self-denial and active charity.

II Vatican Council, Dogmatic Const. on the Church, n. 41: In the various classes and differing duties of life, one and the same holiness is cultivated by all, who are moved by the Spirit of God and who obey the voice of the Father and worship God the Father in spirit and in truth. These people follow the poor Christ, the humble and cross-bearing Christ, in order to be worthy of being sharers in his glory.

Apost. Const. Repent, III c: The Church urges all the faithful to live up to the divine commandment of penance by afflicting their bodies by some acts of chastisement, over and above the discomforts and annoyances of everyday life.... The Church wants to point out that there are three principal ways of satisfying the commandment to do penance, handed down from ancient times -- prayer, fasting and works of charity -- even though abstinence from meat and fasting have received special stress. These penitential methods could be found in all ages, but in our day there are special reasons why one method is encouraged more than the others because of local circumstances. Thus, in nations enjoying greater economic prosperity, encouragement should be given to offering some evidence of self-denial so that Christians will not conform to the world, and at the same time to offering some evidence of charity toward brothers, including those living far away, who are suffering from hunger and poverty.

From the Enchiridion of Indulgences, 1968


Also, please see Matthew 16:18 if there any questions as to the authority to issue these grants.

Isn't it amazing? As I said in post #61, That's the trick with indulgences that protestants can't seem to understand: in the doing of the indulgenced activity with the proper disposition (a requirement to gain the indulgence), the person grows in personal holiness as their concupiscence decreases. The verses we see in the above general indulgences are perfect examples of this. In addition to this, there are specific examples of indulgenced behavior that have direct origin in scripture, such as reciting the canticle, the Magnificat.

There is one that I'd like to point out in particular:

50. Reading of Sacred Scripture (Sacrae Scripturae lectio)

A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful, who with the veneration due the divine word make a spiritual reading from Sacred Scripture.

A plenary indulgence is granted, if this reading is continued for at least one half an hour.

But keep in mind the conditions for receiving an indulgence:

To be capable of gaining an indulgence for oneself, it is required that one be

In order that one who is capable may actually gain indulgences, one

(and no, I don't think you were really asking this question, but I also don't think you were expecting that an answer could be provided, either)


69 posted on 11/29/2005 3:31:02 PM PST by markomalley (Vivat Iesus!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: jo kus
All one can say is that the "historian" of this article is biased, clearly shown by his sarcastic comments. True historians don't lead the reader to make a conclusion, but present the facts.

BTTT! Great point.

70 posted on 11/29/2005 3:34:38 PM PST by fortunecookie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
Monergism.com has these available as audio here.
71 posted on 11/29/2005 3:41:16 PM PST by Lee N. Field
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
Harley, Your doing it again... And, btw, "wikipedia" seems to accurately states both positions and has been verified.

Are you sure that there is not another HarleyD writing posts? Who was it that posted that "...Catholics believe that no priest, as an individual man, however pious or learned, has power to forgive sins. This power belongs to God alone"? Wasn't that YOU? Wikipedia is wrong, as I have stated, and now, your alter ego agrees with me...

In fact, I don't see anything wrong with the EO position off hand.

Clearly, this is not the same HarleyD I know. HE refutes the Catholic/Orthodox idea of Sacraments. HE says that grace is not obtained through the Church's Sacrament of Penance.

With the RCC position, the Church is placing itself in authority of the one doing the forgiving

Funny. You agree with the "EO" position, then you refute it because the "RCC" adheres to it. I suppose if Rome has anything to do with something, it is tainted. Sort of like the Eucharist, right? Again, I repeat that the Church doesn't place ITSELF in authority! That is one of the first things the Church teaches us - it is the continuation of the Incarnation of Christ.

Historically if you pay a sum to the Roman Church you could save someone from hell.

Flatly contradicting Catholic theology seems to be your specialty today. Indulgences don't save ANYONE from hell. Even in the Medieval period, they merely "shortened" one's stay in Purgatory. Purgatory, as you may or may not know, is for the saved...

The Church absolves people from sin through the command of Christ. It has nothing to do with penance assigned or indulgences. All of your posts seem to be fraught with straw-man arguments. This is sad, because I realize that you are not an unintelligent person. I pray that you are not attempting to maliciously mislead people of good faith.

Regards

72 posted on 11/29/2005 3:47:42 PM PST by jo kus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: gscc

25,000 Hail Mary's and you are good for one round-trip? :)


73 posted on 11/29/2005 4:13:09 PM PST by bonfire (dwindler)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1530818/posts


lol


74 posted on 11/29/2005 4:16:49 PM PST by bonfire (dwindler)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: markomalley
(and no, I don't think you were really asking this question, but I also don't think you were expecting that an answer could be provided, either)

And you didn't disappoint - an answer was not provided.  No Scripture was provided to show that Jesus turned over the Keys to Heaven and Salvation to the RC priesthood.  Jesus paid the price for our Salvation on the Cross - He did not then turn around and make my Salvation dependent on your priesthood.

75 posted on 11/29/2005 4:33:17 PM PST by gscc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: gscc
No Scripture was provided to show that Jesus turned over the Keys to Heaven and Salvation to the RC priesthood. Jesus paid the price for our Salvation on the Cross - He did not then turn around and make my Salvation dependent on your priesthood.

Please make up your mind: are you talking about indulgences, or salvation?

Indulgences only benefit the saved; they don't gain anyone's salvation.

Indulgences only benefit the saved; they don't gain anyone's salvation.

Indulgences only benefit the saved; they don't gain anyone's salvation.

Indulgences only benefit the saved; they don't gain anyone's salvation.

Do I need to say it more?

76 posted on 11/29/2005 4:47:44 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis; Campion; jo kus
With all due respect, HD, you don't believe that confession is a sacrament so how in heaven's name would you presume to declare that Orthodox and Roman Catholic confession are different sacraments? Because of your reading of a couple of snips from an on line encyclopedia? You have a rather more authoritative source right at your finger tips, your Orthodox and Latin Rite correspondents here on FR. Why won't you believe us? We live this stuff, HD.

I do not believe confession is a sacrament-certainly not like baptism or communion.

As far as declaring Orthodox and Roman Catholics as different sacraments I said there are differences in the sacrament-not that they were different sacraments. Differences that you've acknowledge.

As far as my encyclopedia snippets goes I will say that I read through the material on newadvent as well as visiting some of the EO websites. It is a simple matter of reading the different theological beliefs and comparing the similarities and differences. However, I don't feel a need to post all the reading material here. I could deduce that EOs don't believe in indulgences simply based on the doctrinal statements I read on other sites and the definitions posted here-so they must have been right. With all due respect, I find people to be faulty (myself included) and prefer to check the official policy sites.

I'm not talking about the Roman Catholic Church selling indulgences now. I'm talking about history 500 years ago. It would be my guess the sales of indulgences popped up between 1) the time when the EO and the RC split and 2)Luther and the Reformation.

BTW-Just a thought so don't get mad at me. People nowadays will forgo what has been handed down for the sake of ecumenicalism. I find your marginalizing this issue troubling but not out of character with a great many Christians today. While the EO and RCC may see this as much to do about nothing I see a significant theological difference and minimizing the correct interpretation of doctrine for the sake of "getting along". Frankly, it's none of my business since I'm neither EO or RCC, I don't buy into either interpretation and I have no right sticking my nose into this business. It only goes back to my statement on another post that everyone is heading towards your direction-but there's a price to be paid.

77 posted on 11/29/2005 4:55:20 PM PST by HarleyD ("Command what you will and give what you command." - Augustine's Prayer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: gscc
And you didn't disappoint - an answer was not provided. No Scripture was provided to show that Jesus turned over the Keys to Heaven and Salvation to the RC priesthood. Jesus paid the price for our Salvation on the Cross - He did not then turn around and make my Salvation dependent on your priesthood.

And this is the really cool part about your statement: we will all find out some day in the not too distant future.

And here's the dichotomy: protestants are certain that those who follow Christianity as established by the apostles will burn in hell forever (their definition of salvation by grace)

Followers of Christianity as established by the Apostles are confident that the mercy of God will cover their ignorance not gained through their own fault:

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

- Apostolic Constitution Lumen Gentium, 1964.

Of course, that is salvation by works.

Amazing the difference between the two...

78 posted on 11/29/2005 5:00:15 PM PST by markomalley (Vivat Iesus!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
"As far as declaring Orthodox and Roman Catholics as different sacraments I said there are differences in the sacrament-not that they were different sacraments. Differences that you've acknowledge."

HD, the differences really don't make a difference for us. It isn't a matter of glossing over differences just to get along. As the Latin Rite Christians here will tell you, the Orthodox are not at all prone to accept changes to doctrine simply to get along, nor for that matter are the Latins. In many areas, what you see in an Orthodox sacrament is quite different from what you see in a Latin one and how we pray when conducting those sacraments can be quite different. In fact, as I think about it, none of our sacraments are conducted in the exact same way and we speak about none of them in the same way, but they are in fact the same sacrament. The various liturgies The Church uses to celebrate the Eucharist are the most obvious example of this both in what you see and what we say about what is going on (the most dramatic example of a difference in what we say and do in a sacrament is probably marriage, but I'll stick to the Eucharist). The differences in what one sees are well known. The Latins use the Novus Ordo Mass, we use the Divine Liturgy of +John Chrysostomos. To me an NO Mass looks very Protestant, but it isn't and to a modern American Latin Rite Christian the Divine Liturgy may seem an exercise in sacramental obscurantism, but it isn't and both are the "liturgia" or work of the people within which the Bread and Wine become the Body and Blood of Christ, exactly the same in both Churches. How we speak of these liturgies is also quite different. For the Latin Rite, the liturgy is called the Sacrifice of the Mass and the emphasis is often placed on the sacrificial aspects of the Passion and Crucifixion of Christ. In the Orthodox Divine Liturgy the emphasis is on the glory of the Resurrection with all of us praising the Ruler of the Universe, the Pantokrator, actually with the angels and the saints in a place where the distinction between heaven and earth dissolves on the "Eighth Day". But they are both the valid and God ordained settings for the exact same sacrament.

This applies for all the sacraments and honestly isn't an example of syncretism born of a commitment to ecumenism.

Now there are a plethora of subjects upon which we disagree, beyond the obvious one about papal authority. There is a fundamental difference about our understanding of the Fall which has far reaching implications. You know about that. We do not and never have believed in indulgences. We do not and never have believed in purgatory, though especially among the Russians there have been some speculations in that regard and even a few who accepted the concept, but that was as a result of Western influences and are no longer considered acceptable. There are also a multitude of discipline type differences and the way each Church approaches the canons is quite different. But none of these differences go to the heart of the sacraments we hold in common.

By the way, your comments don't make me in the least angry. They haven't since I came to the conclusion that you are quite sincere in your delusion! :)
79 posted on 11/29/2005 5:27:23 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 77 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis
This is for the purpose of explaining why we as Catholics believe in the Merits of the Saints, not to try to argue with you...

1. The Faithful, on earth, can, by their good works, performed in the state of grace, render atonement for one another.

The possibility of vicarious atonement is founded in the unity of the Mystical Body. As Christ, the Head, in His expiatory sufferings, took the place of the members, the Church, so also one member can take the place of another. (The doctrine of Indulgences is based on this possibility of vicarious atonement).

Of course, the concept of vicarious atonement precedes Christianity. The innocent person takes onto himself the responsibility for the displeasure of God which the guilty person "merited", in order by sacrifice to win again the Divine favor for the guilty person. For example, Moses offers himself to God as a sacrifice for the people who have sinned (Ex 32:32). Job brings God a burnt offering, in order to expiate the sins of his children (Job 1:5). Isaiah prophesies the vicarious atonement for sins by Jesus. In the NT, Paul teaches that the faithful can rend expiation for one another (Col 1:24; 2 Cor 12:15; 2 Tim 4:6).

Even in the writings of the earliest Fathers, the view is found that the death of the martyrs is a means of expiation for others as well as themselves. St. Ignatius of Antioch writes to the Ephesians that he is consecrating himself for them, that is, that he will offer himself as an expiation offering (8, 1). He also writes to St. Polycarp "Let your works be as your deposited withholdings, so that you may received the back pay which has accrued to you" (6, 2). St. Ignatius is using a military term of withholding part of a soldier's pay, held by the unit's financial officer, and paying this back when the soldier is retired. In the letter to Polycarp, he also designates himself and his claim as "ransom money" for St. Polycarp (2, 3)

Appealing to 2 Cor 12:15 and 2 Tim 4:6, Origen teaches that the Apostles and Martyrs, by their death, remove the sins of the faithful (Numbers homily 10, 2). Tertullian and St. Cyprian attestes to the custom of accepting penitents back into the Church communion on the letter of recommendation of a martyr. St. Cyprian says that "sinners can be supported with the Lord by the help of the martryrs (Ep. 19, 2; 18, 1) St. Ambrose also mentions this in De. Virg. I 7, 32.

Now, with that established, we move to the second part of the doctrine...

There is a communion between the Faithful on Earth and the Saints in Heaven. It is a dogma of belief that we, here on earth, can invoke the saint's intercessions. Naturally, since we in the Body are mystically united, and death will not separate us from Christ, we here on earth are able to not only ask for the intercessions of the saints in heaven, but we can also vicariously offer our sufferings or merits specifically for the souls in Purgatory. There is no need to "prove" this, as there are too many citations of the custom of praying for the dead - a useless proposition for those in heaven or hell. Tertullian mentions it as an "ancient custom" of offering prayers for the dead spouse on the "anniversary" of their death, for example. The Liturgy of the Dead shows this, as well. And the graves of Christians also testify to this belief, where grave inscriptions mention that the souls be recommended to the martyrs.

Hopefully, I have shown that Apostolic Tradition and the Scripture points to the Christian belief that the Merits of souls in heaven, particularly martyrs, CAN aid us here or even while we are in Purgatory. Also, our own merits and prayers can effect those in Purgatory. This is what Catholics believe as a result of subsequent Councils that followed after the Great Schism, although they are beliefs commonly held by the entire Church long before the Schism. Again, not to argue, but to merely point out for others why we believe what we believe.

And finally, all rests on the idea of Christ's merits, of course. Without His objective redemption of all men, there is no talk of merit. Strictly speaking, only Jesus has merited anything. We merit only on a secondary level, meritum de Congruo. We cannot merit a legal claim - meritum de condigno - only a merit out of the Righteousness of God, who promises eternal salvation to those who obey His commands. This merit relies on God's Goodness, not a Legal Obligation.

Brother in Christ

80 posted on 11/29/2005 5:31:06 PM PST by jo kus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100101-104 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson