Replies

With all due respect, HD, you don't believe that confession is a sacrament so how in heaven's name would you presume to declare that Orthodox and Roman Catholic confession are different sacraments? Because of your reading of a couple of snips from an on line encyclopedia? You have a rather more authoritative source right at your finger tips, your Orthodox and Latin Rite correspondents here on FR. Why won't you believe us? We live this stuff, HD.

I do not believe confession is a sacrament-certainly not like baptism or communion.

As far as declaring Orthodox and Roman Catholics as different sacraments I said there are differences in the sacrament-not that they were different sacraments. Differences that you've acknowledge.

As far as my encyclopedia snippets goes I will say that I read through the material on newadvent as well as visiting some of the EO websites. It is a simple matter of reading the different theological beliefs and comparing the similarities and differences. However, I don't feel a need to post all the reading material here. I could deduce that EOs don't believe in indulgences simply based on the doctrinal statements I read on other sites and the definitions posted here-so they must have been right. With all due respect, I find people to be faulty (myself included) and prefer to check the official policy sites.

I'm not talking about the Roman Catholic Church selling indulgences now. I'm talking about history 500 years ago. It would be my guess the sales of indulgences popped up between 1) the time when the EO and the RC split and 2)Luther and the Reformation.

BTW-Just a thought so don't get mad at me. People nowadays will forgo what has been handed down for the sake of ecumenicalism. I find your marginalizing this issue troubling but not out of character with a great many Christians today. While the EO and RCC may see this as much to do about nothing I see a significant theological difference and minimizing the correct interpretation of doctrine for the sake of "getting along". Frankly, it's none of my business since I'm neither EO or RCC, I don't buy into either interpretation and I have no right sticking my nose into this business. It only goes back to my statement on another post that everyone is heading towards your direction-but there's a price to be paid.

"As far as declaring Orthodox and Roman Catholics as different sacraments I said there are differences in the sacrament-not that they were different sacraments. Differences that you've acknowledge."

HD, the differences really don't make a difference for us. It isn't a matter of glossing over differences just to get along. As the Latin Rite Christians here will tell you, the Orthodox are not at all prone to accept changes to doctrine simply to get along, nor for that matter are the Latins. In many areas, what you see in an Orthodox sacrament is quite different from what you see in a Latin one and how we pray when conducting those sacraments can be quite different. In fact, as I think about it, none of our sacraments are conducted in the exact same way and we speak about none of them in the same way, but they are in fact the same sacrament. The various liturgies The Church uses to celebrate the Eucharist are the most obvious example of this both in what you see and what we say about what is going on (the most dramatic example of a difference in what we say and do in a sacrament is probably marriage, but I'll stick to the Eucharist). The differences in what one sees are well known. The Latins use the Novus Ordo Mass, we use the Divine Liturgy of +John Chrysostomos. To me an NO Mass looks very Protestant, but it isn't and to a modern American Latin Rite Christian the Divine Liturgy may seem an exercise in sacramental obscurantism, but it isn't and both are the "liturgia" or work of the people within which the Bread and Wine become the Body and Blood of Christ, exactly the same in both Churches. How we speak of these liturgies is also quite different. For the Latin Rite, the liturgy is called the Sacrifice of the Mass and the emphasis is often placed on the sacrificial aspects of the Passion and Crucifixion of Christ. In the Orthodox Divine Liturgy the emphasis is on the glory of the Resurrection with all of us praising the Ruler of the Universe, the Pantokrator, actually with the angels and the saints in a place where the distinction between heaven and earth dissolves on the "Eighth Day". But they are both the valid and God ordained settings for the exact same sacrament.

This applies for all the sacraments and honestly isn't an example of syncretism born of a commitment to ecumenism.

Now there are a plethora of subjects upon which we disagree, beyond the obvious one about papal authority. There is a fundamental difference about our understanding of the Fall which has far reaching implications. You know about that. We do not and never have believed in indulgences. We do not and never have believed in purgatory, though especially among the Russians there have been some speculations in that regard and even a few who accepted the concept, but that was as a result of Western influences and are no longer considered acceptable. There are also a multitude of discipline type differences and the way each Church approaches the canons is quite different. But none of these differences go to the heart of the sacraments we hold in common.

By the way, your comments don't make me in the least angry. They haven't since I came to the conclusion that you are quite sincere in your delusion! :)

I do not believe confession is a sacrament-certainly not like baptism or communion

A sacrament is a visible sign of God's grace, His action, which is naturally spiritual and invisible. God works for the sake of man's limitations - we can't see His blessings visibly. If you believe that Baptism is a sacrament in this sense, I don't understand why Confession would not be, considering that God is again gracing the penitent with His presence through the visible sign of the absolution given by the priest.

I'd advise not going to wikipedia in the future...

The Roman Catholic Church never OFFICIALLY sold indulgences. This was what it was, an ABUSE of the doctrine of indulgences. Men are human and are prone to abuse things. I thought you were aware of that, being a Calvinist.

I find your marginalizing this issue troubling but not out of character with a great many Christians today.

You are not privy to all the conversations that I have with my Orthodox brothers. Trust me, I just FINISHED a conversation in where we did disagree on a few issues. The trick in such matters is to point out "errors" in a loving manner. This is not done by condemning the other to hell or in constantly misrepresenting the other side - which, unfortunately, you have been prone to do. Both the Orthodox and the Catholics believe that they are right. We realize we are very close brothers, but we also hold to our specific theology. In such matters, then, one must tread gently and with love. You can't expect to rush in like a bull, telling the other they are heretics, and expect them to comply. There is no reason why the Orthodox need us or vice versus. If there is a unity, it will be mutually conducive to both sides.

Correct me if I am wrong, my Orthodox brothers.

Regards