I Dare

This may be the post that gets me zotted, and if so, so be it, but it would be a nice sign of respect for free speech, and just plain old maturity if that doesn’t happen. I won’t lose sleep either way though.

All through the Clinton years FR played a key role in helping me really come to appreciate the wisdom of the founding fathers as Clinton violated their principles in so many ways. I found here a large community of wise, informed posters from a diverse background that added depth and clarity to the news of the day. It was here on FR that I found out about the WTC attack. Being Canadian, the second amendment always seemed kind of silly to me, but through FR I learned how wrong that view was and now wish my country had such a right for it’s citizens.

That was then, now more and more it has felt like FR has dwindled into an insular, nearly feral, group of political and religious thought police whose mission is to ferret out anybody who doesn’t fit their orthodoxy and get rid of them, while propagandizing against anything the disagree with. At times it feels more energy is spent attacking those who should be seen as allies rather than the true enemies. I used to spend a fair bit of time here each day, now perhaps a quick look once every few weeks because of this change in climate. I know many have left because of it, many have already posted their concerns about it, and their wise observations and suggestions have fallen on deaf ears.

I do feel I have a small measure of responsibility for the change (but no guilt). When FR started to fail to live up to it’s own rules about not bashing religions (when it came to my religion) we Mormon posters decided that instead of being party to the creation of long threads filled with contention that made it hard for the moderators see the difference in our behavior and theirs, we decided instead to simply post articles putting forward our position and leave the critics to show their true colors. (see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2013341/posts). Not only did the anti-Mormon posters oblige us and demonstrate the level of hate and bigotry in their hearts, but so did the anti-Momons within the leadership of FR. And thus began the decent of FR from a vibrant ad-hoc conservative think tank into an echo chamber of yes men with a loud group of religious bigots leading the way. It is sad to see it come to this, and I hope that the day comes when sanity returns. Something that needs to happen for that day to come is for the majority of people around here to face this reality: If you are not supporting Mitt Romney, you are playing into Obama’s hands. Any hopes of a brokered convention or third party conservative super-candidate are nothing but delusions fueled by a denial of reality. It comes down to either Mitt or Obama, and if you are not supporting Mitt you are helping Obama. Deal with it.

And don’t try to hide behind the idea that Mitt losing will be good in the long term for conservatism. That is putting your partisanship above your patriotism. Obama has done massive damage to the USA, and if you give him another 4 years you may not have a USA left at the end of his term. What good will this theoretical transformation of the GOP then? Truth is that if Mitt loses, no matter how conservative or liberal his campaign and policies are, the media will blame it on him being too right-wing and drive the GOP to the left as much as they can. Also, the good of the country should come first if you want to call yourself a patriot, and having Mitt in the White House will be much better for the USA than having Obama there.

While Mitt is not perfect (nobody is) I find many of the attacks on him so over the top, so full of exaggeration and fear mongering that ignores contrary evidence or any sense of proportion that I can’t help but suspect they hyperbole is just a mask for darker motives. The fact that in many cases these attacks come from those who also display great hostility towards Mormonism says it all. Deny it all you want, it is easy to see. For a satirical look at it, check this video I made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG68yz-mMgE

I am going to make some predictions I would like to make, and I hope this thread stays around so that in years to come you can all look back and see how it turned out:

- every conservative you respect will vote for Mitt, all of them (perhaps a couple excepts, but not many) will even endorse him and perhaps campaign with him

- President Romney will do very well on the economy and on foreign affairs/national security

- President Romney will conduct himself with honor and integrity both in office and in his personal life

- You will hear conservative pundits call him this generation’s Ronald Reagan, or Ronald Reagan’s 3rd term or something along those lines

- If there is an assassination attempt on him, it will either be by the Chineese, or by some religiously motivated nutjob (Islamic or Evangelical)

And for those of you anti-Mormons out there, I have some prediction for you too. And these apply even if Romney is not elected as POTUS:

- Your grandchildren will call Mormons Christians, and look at Mormonism as the third branch of Christianity alongside Catholicism and Protestantism

- All the attacks against Romney that stem from the anti-Mormon garbage you have bought into will result in the attacker either apologizing, or in their loss of credibility. The more anti-Mormon attacks are made in the mainstream media, the worse the attackers will look.

- Your grandchildren will likewise look at such attacks as being as bigoted and wrong, even when they come from you.

- Some of your grandchildren or great-grandchildren will become Mormons, and after you are dead they will have temple ordinances performed for you, and you will be glad at the time that they do.

I dare you to post your own predictions of what a Romney presidency will result in.

I dare FR to leave this thread open and available for comments and to not delete a single comment from it.

I dare FR to start respecting freedom of religion by not playing favorites towards one religious group as is currently done by disallowing Mormon caucus threads, and if that is too big a challenge for you, the do away with the Religion Forum altogether.

I dare you all to give Mormons and Mormonism the respect it deserves to have as the 4th largest denomination in the USA, stalwart defender of traditional values, glowing example of Christian charity at home and around the world, the most conservative people of all religious groups, and staunch defenders of the principles of the constitution and values that built the country. No matter how much you disagree with us on religious matters, we are and should be treated as valuable conservative allies. Until FR does that, all they do is shoot themselves in the foot.

I daresay that had Mitt Romney been as conservative as most Mormons, there would be far less acrimony now. But nooooo, he’s been largely indistinguishable from Harry Reid on most issues of the day. Had you gained as fine an appreciation for our founding principles over the course of your being a FReeper, I also daresay that you’d be able to overcome mere tribalism to recognize the weakness of the candidate in this regard. No one ever saw me going to the mat for Mike Huckabee, despite apparent religious common ground. He’s an advocate of big government. There we parted ways. That you apparently are unwilling or unable to do the same says much about your priorities, which would appear to be rather oddly grounded in group identity for a putative constitutional conservative.

One of the finer posts on this thread.

Indeed, tribalism is rampant in Utah, Southern Idaho, Southwest Wyoming, Eastern Nevada, and parts of Arizona and Colorado. And it's been rampant among the FREEPER Mormons.

A Feb 08 Salt Lake City Trib article id'd this re: an exit poll after the Utah primaries. It said that unlike other voters in other states, who weighed heavily on "issues" in evaluating candidates, Utah voters chose Romney based upon "personal qualities."... Personal qualities is wink-wink, nudge-nudge, "he's a fellow tribalist."

Now don't get me wrong. I think voters should inject their worldviews and faith considerations into the ballot both -- and support Mormons who would refrain from compartmentalizing their faith. But Mormons are by and large pro-life; Romney's been back and forth so many times in tossing the pre-born under the bus that he can't be named an advocate for them; and Mormons are largely conservative; Romney the biggovt socialist healthcare pioneer and liberal judge-appointer isn't.

Had Evangelicals in a Southern state supported Huckabee 94-6%, the MSM and others would have pounced all over that. But Mormons' penchant for voting ONLY or PRIMARILY on the basis of religion doesn't get even a passing acknowledgement from those who like to cry "bigotry."

They rail and harp and rant vs. non-Mormons who may merely include Mormonism as one consideration among many,/i>; yet they totally ignore it when it's done as a primary or only consideration by Mormon voters. (Can you say religious hypocrisy???)

Instead of consistent applications of their standards, they have "looked the other way."

“...only two posters (I believe) thought this incendiary prophesy was “over the top vitriol” eh???”

The intense level of vitriol spewed by some Evangelicals toward Mormonism makes it plausible that some already unbalanced person Westboro Baptist type might feel justified resorting to violence to ‘protect’ America from having a Mormon president. The replies reflect that a lot of people see that as plausible, and you don’t have anybody to blame but yourselves for that.

“If the reverse was done — if a present or future MORMON had been pegged as a presidential assassin on a thread, the hue and cry would have been great...”

I can’t say how others would react, but I would find the suggestion so insane I would laugh at how stupid the poster was making themselves look. Are Mormon Bishops or other leaders out whipping up animosity against any others? No. Is there some group within my church that is similar to the Westboro Baptists? Not that I know of. Plus we’ve been just fine with all kinds of non-Mormon presidents, helping them get elected, supporting them in office, working with them.

Anyway, your paranoid hyperventilating is as amusing as always.

"Not only did the anti-Mormon posters oblige us and demonstrate the level of hate and bigotry in their hearts..."

I won't post the myriad number of outright visceral posts by the mormons and their defenders to those who were engaged in debating your theology and doctrine in response to this bait.

I'll simply posit the following towards you and them...

A seeker of truth should never see gentle, truthful rebuke or rebuttal as anything other than concern and love.

“Open rebuke is better than secret love. Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful" (Prov.27:5-6).

"Whoso loveth instruction, loveth also knowledge: but he that HATETH REPROOF IS BRUTISH” – a mere brute – an animal! (Prov.12:1).

“A wise man heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke” (Prov.13:1).

“A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth. Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge” (Prov.14:6-7).

“He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy” (Prov.29:1).

What you and many others here on FR see as "hatred", those of us opposed to mormonism see as rebuke. Rebuke/refutation towards a theology that fired the first shot by declaring ALL of Christianity apostate and the practitioners of such, whores of Babylon and pawns of Satan.

And this theology continues this practice to this day.

"And for those of you anti-Mormons out there, I have some prediction for you too. And these apply even if Romney is not elected as POTUS:

- Your grandchildren will call Mormons Christians, and look at Mormonism as the third branch of Christianity alongside Catholicism and Protestantism"

Nope, I won't let them believe this. I will educate them on the Bible and then show them, point by point how mormonism is wrong. But answer me this; How is mormonism to be considered a "third branch of Christianity" when mormons claim and have claimed since its inception that it's a "complete restoration"?

"- All the attacks against Romney that stem from the anti-Mormon garbage you have bought into will result in the attacker either apologizing, or in their loss of credibility. The more anti-Mormon attacks are made in the mainstream media, the worse the attackers will look."

Again, what you see as "hatred" and "garbage", I see as rebuke.

" - Your grandchildren will likewise look at such attacks as being as bigoted and wrong, even when they come from you."

Pretty bold declaration of an emotional appeal to political correctness. I have not taught my children PC. They are being taught that logic and reasoning trump irrational fears and emotional appeals.

" - Some of your grandchildren or great-grandchildren will become Mormons, and after you are dead they will have temple ordinances performed for you, and you will be glad at the time that they do."

Maybe so, then again maybe yours will leave mormonism. But I will be able to stand before God and account for my efforts. I will not bow at the pagan altars in the mormon temples. I won't be "glad" of anything they may do as it is irrelevant to my salvation and completely without merit.

In closing, I am not an “anti-mormon”, no matter how many times it’s repeated. Instead of using more accurate terms or words like “church critic”, the word “anti-” is used as it relates to the mormons as a people, “anti-mormon”. That it is a personal prejudice. To draw parallels to many “anti-” [such as anti-semitism] pogroms from the past and currently.

It’s an incendiary word that is already loaded with negative connotations that arouses in people a reflexive response that is neither necessary nor relevant, almost feral in nature.

If I were an anti-mormon, meaning I don’t like mormons, or “hate” them as I’ve been so oft accused, why would I still be married to one? Why would I associate with them in the many venues that I do? Why would I care about them enough to endure the slurs, slander, lies etc. that I encounter not only on FR, but in my daily life because I dare to take a stand against the false teachings of mormonism?

No, I dare say that if I "hated" mormons, I would leave them to their fate, instead, I challenge them to challenge their beliefs and teachings. I challenge them to come to know this...

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.[KJV] John 6:29

///Signed///

An ex-mormon

Nah. It was like one big party - if you were conservative. The new found era of unfettered information flow was a powerful drug for folks who shared Constitutional ideology. Living in a propagandized society with leftist distortion all around, coming to FR was like pure oxygen to a drowning man.

FReepers gave us the infamous ‘Get out of Cheney's house’ chant that drove Algore nuts. FReepers also broke into an Algore/press conference call and posted the number and live action online. A FReeper called the Challenger(?) disaster on a thread as we followed the visible craft from Hawaii onward a full 15 minutes before officialdom could realize it. I'm sure the Swifties were propelled along on a FReeper tidal wave. Also, Dan Rather's demise began here as FReeper Buckhead analyzed and replicated the forged documents Dan tried to pass off as genuine. The rest, as they say, is history.

It was freedom, pure and simple. FReepers created the concept of ‘pajama media’ and mass organized conservative protests. For the first time since the 1950’s, conservatives actually could meet, talk and live in company with other patriots. Woe, however, to the mole or troll that sought to distort or corrupt that freedom. Moderates may have had hard times, but, hey, middle of the roaders always get run over.

Today, I don't know. With so many media choices it's no longer is the only game in town. Even Rush has to play pick-up sometimes. The recent process of paring pubbie possibles was brutal and I don't regret a moment - conflict of ideas is the only real state of intellectual advancement and somebody will need to go packing.

All the same, it will remain my news source. These are real Americans. Well, all except for the idiots who support Romney.

“A seeker of truth should never see gentle, truthful rebuke or rebuttal as anything other than concern and love.”

Of course, but that isn’t what I’m talking about. Mockery, insults, the intellectual dishonesty of repeating in thread after thread accusation that have already been rebutted, the refusal to give honest consideration to anything said in reply, those are not the actions of somebody filled with concern and love. Look at the replies to this thread, a LOT of people see the hate fueled Mormon bashing for what it is.

“Nope, I won’t let them believe this”

Good luck with that, they’ll make up their own minds.

“But answer me this; How is mormonism to be considered a “third branch of Christianity” when mormons claim and have claimed since its inception that it’s a “complete restoration”?”

Same way we consider Catholicism and Protestantism to be part of Christianity, we are the branch that is correct :).

Catholics claim exclusive authority from Peter but that doesn’t seem to be an issue.

“Again, what you see as “hatred” and “garbage”, I see as rebuke. “

Well, if you are trying to rebuke somebody out of love and all they perceive is hatred then you are not doing a very good job, are you? Perhaps you could try to learn from your mistakes so you can be more effective.

Are Mormon Bishops or other leaders out whipping up animosity against any others? No

(Yeah, we know -- the typical Lds philosophy we hear: "Speak softly and carry a big Pearl of Great Price stick")

Definition of a 'big Pearl of Great Price stick':
"You Christian sects are 100% wrong;
100% apostates;
100% creedally putrid;
100% corrupt as believers...
...Signed: Cordially, your "nice" Mormon neighbor
P.S. "Of course, we'll be polite & use Lds missionary doorstep language like 'universal apostasy' instead of pointing our fingers right @ you..."
"...and we'll fund the outer darkness out of hundreds of different Pearl of Great Price translations which mention ALL of the above...so our 'big stick' will seem once-removed..."
"...But make no mistake about it, we've sent out literally over 1 million Lds missionaries who've carried this 'Big Stick' around the world!!!"

The fact is, Grig, that you have probably tithed to the Lds church and therefore your $ has been enjoined toward the translating/re-publishing of the Pearl of Great Price, right?

Otherwise, I like to know how you might frame this as if almost to say: "Well, it 'twas the Lord Himself whose 'renounced' the entire Christian church. It wasn't me. I just adhere, believe, subscribe to the First Vision like it was a creed. I just adhere, believe, and subscribe to the Mormon creed that the entire Christian church bodies are a bunch of apostates. I just adhere, believe and subscribe to the Mormon creed that Joseph was right when he labeled ALL Christian professing believers as 'corrupt.'"

I mean, c'mon, Grig...I don't think I've seen any canonized Bible add-on books like the "Book of Irish - History, verses 18-20" labeling ALL the Protestants or ALL the Catholics as "corrupt" -- or ALL their creeds as putrid -- like the Pearl of Great Price.

Fact is, Joseph Smith regularly damned other religionists to hell and even went so far to say "...they cannot escape the damnation of hell.":

"But say you, What will become of the world, or the various professors of religion who do not believe in revelation & the oracles of God as continued to His Church in all ages of the world, when He has a people on earth? I tell you, in the name of Jesus Christ, they will be damned; and when you get into the eternal world, you will find it will be so, they cannot escape the damnation of hell." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 272)

"Compare this principle once with Christendom at the present day, and where are they, with all their boasted religion, piety, and sacredness while at the same time they are crying out against prophets, apostles, angels, revelations, prophesying and visions, etc. Why, they are just ripening for the damnation of hell. They will be damned, for they reject the most glorious principle of the Gospel of Jesus Christ...Yes, I say, such will be damned, with all their professed godliness." (pp. 298-299)

***************

So...to wrap this up...

#1 I know what that average true-believing Mormon believes about me. I know...
...they don’t tolerate my creeds (their ‘good book’ & their leaders tells them we’re automatically abominable on that basis).
...many don't seem to perceive Christ’s righteousness in me (their ‘good book’ tells them I’m automatically ‘corrupt’).
...they don’t respect our faithfulness to Christ and His church (their leaders & ‘good book’ tell them we’re all "apostates" and that the Mormon church is the "only true and living church on the face of the earth" (D&C 1:30)

BUT, BUT...despite knowing all these walls Mormons have had in place for 182 years…does it keep me from linking up with a Mormon to...
...oppose abortion,
...the homosexual agenda,
...nationalized healthcare,
...higher taxes,
..working with youth on behalf of a Scout program?

(No!)

So, yes I and other Christians are able to work around Mormon-built slander and walls thrown up at Christians in all kinds of interactive scenarios living life among Mormons.

#2 I guess what I don't comprehend...
...is how a few electronic posts from concerned Christians and ex-Mormons on a given Web site...
...are perceived as somehow so "threatening" to the political stability of conservative Christians and conservative Mormons...
...especially given the above-mentioned crescendo of daily slander coming from the Mormon side!!!

Ask yourself this, Grig:

* Have I ever labeled 100% of Mormon creeds to be an "abomination" to my God? (No; yet that is the reverse position Mormons have toward Christians...look at Joseph Smith - History, verses 18-19 for that)
* Do Christians send out 55,000 missionaries every year with one of their top four messages telling all minority new religions that they are "apostates?" (No; yet that is the exact case with Mormons as the "universal apostasy" is one of their top four messages drilled in them to focus upon...and they cover this in their Web sites, their books, their curricula, their multi-media as well).

So it seems the underlying messages coming from those who argue from your angle is that Christians have to 100% stomach this Mormon daily onslaught as we work with grassroots Mormons to some agree – but they can’t do the same in reverse when it comes to a few articles, a number of Web sites and electronic posts?

Oh, please. Start looking at things with less lopsided eyes.

Bottom line: Hey, if I can get along with Mormons who reference me as an...
..."apostate" "corrupt" believer
...who belongs to the "church of the devil" (1 Nephi 14:9-10, Book of Mormon)
-- a supposed member of a false and dead church
-- who embraces 100% "abominable" creeds
-- then Mormons can begin to (for once) thicken their skin over what is by comparison a few handfuls of posts and threads that have no worldwide audience with $billions of budget $ like the Mormon church can garner.

Your let's not rock-the-boatitis political vanity is plain silly in light of Mormon pirates who've been trying to capsize the Christian church for over 180 years (by claiming we're all infidel-like 'apostates').

But answer me this; How is mormonism to be considered a "third branch of Christianity" when mormons claim and have claimed since its inception that it's a "complete restoration"?

Excellent Q, Szonian.

ALL: Szonian, an ex-Mormon still married to an active Mormon, has hit upon a key tension that just about EVERY contemporary true-believing Mormon is faced with...

Lds want to see themselves as tolerant -- and therefore, try to "carve out" new ground as some sort of "Third branch of Christianity."

But Joseph Smith didn't leave them this option; and neither does the formal Lds church, Inc.

If Christianity was still operative with authority -- and no universal apostasy as Lds church, Inc. claims...
...when Joseph Smith came on the scene (early 1800s),
...then there was no need for a "restoration"...

A reformation? Possibly...the church is always being reformed...but not a total-from-scratch "restoration" as Mormons claim...

Otherwise, Smith and his work was 100% superflous...redundant...100% unnecessary...

Therefore, in the Pearl of Great PRice - Joseph Smith, History, vv. 18-19...Smith tried to say ALL Christian sects professors of their faith were "corrupt" -- unjoinable...and their creeds were 100% an abomination.

So...Mormons like GRig are kind of stuck...

They want the brand name of Christian and Christianity--and lust after it...

But their very own made-up Smith "scriptures" won't allow them to be "Christians" like Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox Christianity. Because we are actually in their eyes "apostates"...just like the Muslims call us "infidels."

Wouldn't you know it that the Mormons came along to just happen to 100% reinforce Muhammad's messages about the worldwide Christian church!

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