Skip to comments.The Obama Birth Certificate Debate: Two columnists go head-to-head on the birther movement
Posted on 03/29/2011 8:53:35 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
There has been a continued debate within our Opinion department on whether or not Barack Obama's presidency is legitimate, based on the conspiracy of his Hawaiian certificate of live birth. This topic continues to spike up, most recently with the mention earlier this month by potential presidential candidate Donald Trump. Opinion writers have pitched separate, individual articles about the birther topic for quite some time, but with a need to provide both sides of the argument, we created and sent five questions about the conspiracy to William Lolli and Dick Ellis, resident contributers for SanDiego.com.
Question 1) Explain the 'Obama Birth Certificate' debate, as you understand it, from its origins.
William Lolli: The so-called Obama Birth Certificate issue originated in 2007 when Obama announced his candidacy. From the beginning the issue has been mischaracterized by media and governmental forces that are vehemently opposed to the disclosure and validation of president Obamas Constitutional credentials. The term 'birther' was allegedlly crafted by bloggers as a canard but has since morphed into a pejorative denotation of anyone questioning the validity of Obamas adherence to the Constitutions Article 2 Section 1 requirement that the president must be a natural born Citizen. The online New Oxford American Dictionary says a birther is: "a person who doubts the legitimacy of Barack Obama's presidency because of a conspiracy theory that Obama is not a natural-born US citizen." Whether or not a conspiracy exists is beside the point, and indeed, is a distraction from the point, as are other ancillary charges that birthers are racists or Islamophobes. At the heart of the birther issue are two fundamental positions stemming from the Rule of Law: accountability of government through transparency, and the desire to maintain the integrity of the Constitutional framework.
From 2007 to the present, birthers sought disclosure by appealing to elected officials, the press, and government agencies through FOIA requests, polls, emails, petitions, phone calls, interviews, letters, and lawsuits to try to gain access to Obamas credential-claiming documents. They have not been successful in any of these ventures. More than 17 federal and state lawsuits have been filed, each seeking discovery that could confirm or deny Obamas credential validity. In federal and state cases pre-trial motions dismissed the cases based upon a combination of grounds: insufficient state election laws to compel eligibility compliance, lack of standing by the parties, lack of subject matter jurisdiction, or that the facts had been sufficiently "twittered" into general acceptance as "true". No birther-case has ever been heard on the merits. No discovery has ever been granted, and no one has ever seen Obamas original long-form certificate of live birth, much less any other documentation that would validate his place of birth. Thus Obama has never proven his Constitutional claims, Congress doesnt have the guts to ask, the media exhibits distain on the subject, and the courts will not touch a political issue. The reason for this resistance is rooted in the magnitude of what is unknown about Obama: If Obama is ineligible then everything he has done in office the last two years is invalid and the financial-political effects of that truth would be catastrophic.
Dick Ellis: Obama was concocted in a laboratory by Bolshevik Jews intent on conquering the United States and the world with their one beautiful Frankensteins monster creation: the inexorable, indefatigable, god-head man Barrack Hussein Obama. Their plan was brilliant. First, give him a name that will ring as all-American with the electorate. Second, forge a certificate of live birth and plant birth announcements in the Hawaiian newspapers again because in 1961, Hawaii was as all-American as snüs and kebabs. Thirdly, educate him in madrahsas and teach him to hate the great Satan, USA. Finally, send him to the USA late in his life and abra-cadoodle the perfect candidate for president! Its a natural born conspiracy theory for natural born natural suckers. Delusional natural born xenophobes whose meager lease on free thought has run out are being controlled by corporations who seek to destabilize and destroy the public sector in the United States, and what better way to achieve these ends than by creating doubt about the legitimacy of the President. Do I sound mad? Do I sound like Im espousing a conspiracy theory? Well, lets just sit back and let the porridge call the oatmeal bland.
Its xenophobia masquerading as democratic vigilance. At its heart is a dangerous idea that attempts to paint the democratically elected president of the United States as a kind of vile outsider who doesnt belong, who doesnt share our ideals, beliefs and core values. The president, birtherism ultimately expounds, isnt one of us. Birtherism is thinly veiled monoculturalism. Its evident in its proponents shared beliefs that Obama is a secret Muslim. That Obama hates white people. Its all part of the package. Of course, a person can be an irrational birther and not believe the president is a secret white-hating Muslim, but the overlap in these beliefs is condemning, and these separate and disparate beliefs, which too often hold hands in a single person, are damning to birtherism as a whole.
Question 2) Where is the controversy today?
WL: With the failure of the courts to allow any examination of the merits based upon forensicly obtained evidence, birthers have turned to various other ancillary investigative venues to obtain disclosure.
Recent documents substantiate that Obama only attended Columbia University for 9 months in 1982-1983, contrary to official accounts. FOIA and other requests have been submitted to the State Department for passport and travel records. The Selective Service and Social Security Administrations have been asked for documentation regarding Obamas Connecticut-based social security number 042-68-4425. Investigators have traced the number prior to Obamas [ending in 4424] to Newington, Conn. resident Thomas Wood, deceased at age 19. To date no government agency can explain how Obama obtained the Connecticut number when at no point in his child or early adult years was he a resident of the state. Investigations continue into Hawaiian infant-death records for sequential relationships with Obamas COLB record number 151 01961 010641. The Nordyke twins have made public their long-form certificates with numbers ending in 37 and 38. There are several infant-death candidates that may have had birth certificate numbers issued during the August 1961 time frame. These efforts hope to yield more information now kept from the public.
DE: Today, birtherism is a matter of right wing political convenience. Besides the fact that the birther thing is one big ridiculous distraction from all the actual and very real problems currently facing our country and our world, it is useful for politicians as a dogwhistle. It isnt 100% politically correct or fashionable to call someone a dirty stinking UnAmerican brown shit stain who hates Jesus and apple pie. That kind of talk is simply not allowed, but its possible to allude to that kind of thing. Its very easy to thanks to the f**kwitted, evidence-free birther conspiracy theory. Thats why its beneficial for Donald Trump, a man who has got to be smarter than he looks, to imply that golly gee willickers, guys, you know, hyuck, I just dont know if Obama is an American or not since nobody from his childhood remembers him at all excepting of course, for his kindergarten teachers.
Question 3) Is there a specific party or group pushing this topic? Who has vocally supported it? Who has vocally come out against it?
WL: Vocally supported disclosure of credentials: WorldNetDaily, 450,000 from an unofficial WND poll, Dean Singleton, Notre Dame Law Professor Charles Rice, Chris Matthews, Luke Scott, Tim Walberg, Newt Gingrich, Senator David Vitter, Camille Paglia, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin, Laura Ingraham, Donald Trump, Sarah Palin, Neil Abercrombie, governor of Hawaii, USAF Lt. General McInerney, Michael Savage, G. Gordon Liddy, Brian Sussman, Lars Larson, Bob Grant, Jim Quinn, Rose Tennent, Barbara Simpson, Mark Davis, Fred Grandy, Rick Roberts, Lou Dobbs, Congressmen Roy Blunt, Nathan Deal, Michele Bachman, Steve King, Bob Inglis, Bill Posey, Trent Franks, JD Hayworth, and a CNN/Opinion Aug 2010 Poll that 25% of Americans think Obama is not born in the US. Vocally against: Most mainstream news outlets including NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, Fox News Channel, blogs of the Left, the majority leadership of Democratic and Republican parties, every state Secretary of State, the Executive Branch including the Administration, State Department, Justice Department, Social Security Administration, Selective Service Administration and most federal agencies.
DE: The conspiracy is popular, of course, among the far right wing, which is pretty much the only right wing left in this country. The birther conspiracy theory rests on unbridled hatred of anything different than the person holding the theory up as truth. Its all part of the greater right wing plan for America. The first thing a birther does if you call them on their racist shit is cry and whine and deny it, and then they cry and whine and complain that theyre being represented in the media as something theyre not. If a right winger cant blubber on and on about how theyre being victimized, then theyve got no defense. Its their only card. That mean old left wing media is misrepresenting us and taking our words out of context. Pity us up here on our big f**king cross.
Question 4) Any similarity to this topic, to anything else in our history (or another country's history)?
WL: There has been an ongoing controversy concerning Chester A. Arthur, 21st President of the United States (1881-1885) as to his also not have been qualified for the office. Arthurs father, a Protestant preacher from Ireland, was a British subject who did not naturalize as a U.S. citizen until some years after the future President's birth. There has also been some question about eligibility of presidential candidate Charles Evans Hughes, Sr. (April 11, 1862 August 27, 1948), the 11th Chief Justice of the United States and Republican candidate in the 1916 U.S. Presidential election, losing to Woodrow Wilson.
DE: Its become quite fashionable in politics to demonize the entirety of the democratic process. Both the traditional Democratic left in this country and the howlingly retarded right wing complain of voter intimidation, voter fraud, voter machine fraud and problems with tallying up the peoples votes. The anti-Bush jr. faction claimed he stole the election, and that there was wide spread voter fraud and intimidation of voters occurring in Florida. Now, the right wing goombahs are making allegations that ACORN helped to steal the election and that Obama isnt really an American. Anything to cast doubt on our Democracy stands to serve the corporate masters, and it will continue until the people of this country have no democracy. Until the people of this country have nothing but wild-eyed goons screaming the end is nigh from the doorway of the liquor store. (Basically, a bunch of Glenn Becks without television or radio shows)
Question 5) How do you predict that the birth certificate topic will end?
WL: It is fairly obvious that those who stand the most to lose, if in fact Obama is constitutionally ineligible, will oppose the vetting processes. If Obama is ineligible as president, the reversal-effects of his nullification will have lasting and devastating financial and political consequences. Both political parties, all branches of government, and every Americanindeed, the world-- will feel the impact. Individual and corporate culpability will be widespread, because, to paraphrase Lincoln, all of the People were willingly fooled for some of the time. But truth has a power all its own. Though painful, truth does purify and restore. And the birthers are hopeful that only truth can preserve the sovereign integrity of the Rule of Law and the Constitutional resiliency of our Republic.
DE: It will all end in ignorance and tears. The new right wing of this country is one intent to ignore all evidence. Theyve even made proud assertions to the fact that they do not live in a reality-based community, and thats evident. From the baseless and evidence-free birther and death panel conspiracies on one hand, to the dismissal of the mountains of evidence and scientific consensus concerning anthropomorphic global warming and evolutionary biology on the other. They are a group of heads-in-the-sand denialists, contrarians and malignant dividers. Birthers are but a small symptom of their grand old clan, and arent worth the honest time and attention that has been afforded to them.
Furthermore, and of the utmost importance, this is America motherf**kers, Obama is innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof is upon the prosecuting parties, so bring on your piles of evidence. Lets just manage to get through exhibit A without stumbling down a road of bullshit so dense it forms the birther equivalency of a neutron star. As George W. said, Bring it on! But youve got nothing to bring. Its a conspiracy a-go-go. Conspiracy theories are dangerous. Passion is an exaggeration, and conspiracy theories are the result of misguided passions, leading to ridiculous, but sometimes even dangerous exaggerations that can lead an otherwise rational nation into the depths of genocidal atrocity. How birtherism might result in the same horrors as those brought about by belief in the veracity of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is something that from this vantage point in time cannot be seen, but the lesson is easy to see. We must be vigilant against these passionate exaggerations. And stamp them out before they become our national nightmare, our national disgrace and our democracys greatest shame. It is at our peril that we take this viral meme of anti-democratic race-hate as anything but what it so obviously is.
Both of these guys are idiots.
1) William - Good exposure of the facts
2) “DICK” - the name says it all
“If a right winger cant blubber on and on about how theyre being victimized, then theyve got no defense.”
D.E. (whoever it is) is a perfect example of the left “projecting” their beliefs and M.O. onto others.
Everyone KNOWS the left (progressives) are the ones crying victimization at the bat of an eyelash.
I think they’re scared...as well they SHOULD be.
Where do they contribute, the sperm bank, red cross?They haven't contributed much here.
DE: Typical liberal tactics. If you can’t win on the facts, distort, diffuse and resort to foul mouth name calling.
It’s real simple. Produce the document.. End of story.. There is no debate.
Ellis, typical liberal, has no defense so he starts out by calling people names and attempting to use sarcasm.
To be honest, I am shocked that a newspaper would print William’s comments. He seems to have a good grasp of what is going on and the fact that someone so level headed writes for a newspaper in California is shocking.
I hate the other gentleman’s comments, although with some of the language he used, “gentleman” is stretching it...
I give the newspaper a lot of credit for wanting to post both sides of the story and thank them for allowing us to look nice and normal, not crazy. :-)
It’s all a big game of Liar’s Dice, and the American People have called “BS” on the hand claimed...
But nobody will lift up the cup to see who has won.
“innocent until proven guilty”? No. Sorry. You run for POTUS you demonstrate to the American people you hold the qualifications for office listed in the Constitution.
Trump’s little display made it clear to even the MSM: a “certificate of live birth” is NOT a birth certificate.
Why the $2 million in legal expense to fight the American public from seeing a document it costs $39 bucks to obtain?
The best information about Chester A Arthur was that he was frequently a liar and worked hard to hide information. The facts were not found by the press of the day and many were distracted by claims he was really born in Canada.
I hadn't run across Charles Evans Hughes Sr at the time. I have read one site that suggests he was, without doubt, not qualified under jus sanguinis and that a Democrat, FDR's future Secretary of State Breckenridge Long, brought the issue forward at the time. Maybe Hughes was qualified, maybe he was not. It's less important since he was not elected president BUT that is was an issue then, makes it a legitimate issue now.
Neither answers the question of Obama's qualification or address his flippant unwillingness to release his long for birth certificate. I realize his action is purposeful, designed as a red herring and allow him to mock opponents.
It's a scandal the courts, the congress and state legislatures (via eligibility bills) have been unwilling to look at this issue. It's evident there is, as Al Gore once infamously said, "no controlling legal authority."
How is a certified copy of a birth certificate required for a driver's license or state ID card but, apparently, not to become POTUS? What are these legislators really afraid of? Even bills that would bypass the 2012 election, and therefore questions about Obama, are failing.
NE - LB 654 hearing held as of 3/10/11. HI - HB1116 Rida Cabanilla (D!) intro'd bill 1/11 to supply BC for "persons of civic prominence" upon request and $100 fee. MO - Failed in '09. Trying again, HB 283 hearing held as of 3/1/11. TX - HB 295 intro'd 11/10, in committee as of 2/15 TN - SB 1043 intro'd 1/11, in committee as of 2/23. OK - Failed in '08. SB91 advanced to House for consideration as of 3/14. To see the details, type SB91 in the "Measure Number" box on the Oklahoma Legislature Home Page Quick Search Form CT - SB 391 intro'd 1/11. In committee. IA - SF 369, intro'd 3/11. In committee. ME - LD34, Died in committee 3/3/11. GA - Failed in '10. (HB 1516). Failed in '11 (HB 401). MT - HB 205 intro'd 1/11. "Missed Deadline for General Bill Transmittal" AZ - Failed in '10 - passed house, senate refused to vote. Tried in 2/11, died in senate committee. IN - Intro'd 1/11. Died in committee. NH - Intro'd 3/11. Died in committee.
Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner!
Why would you call the Birther arguments those of an idiot? They were stated more intelligently than I have ever heard them
Since you agree with Darth I will ask you too ...why do you call the birther arguments here those of an idiot?
It’s a shame the “argument” most frequently presented is, “Oh all that’s been settled. Move on.”
Trump as recently as yesterday was called out by leftist media (Time, etc.) for even thinking of running for president showing only his Certificate of Live Birth — and that’s all we’ve ever seen from Obama.
But in the same articles those JounaLists suggest the Obama issue has been settled.
When? He’s never shown it. Lawsuits are pending. Nobody has standing, the courts have said delaying it, and we have a fraud as POTUS.
God bless Donald Trump! Never thought I’d say that..
On July 28, 2009, Hawaii Health Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino issued a statement saying, “I ... have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen.”
So... show it! If it exists, let’s see it. Also, if the reason it can’t be subject to a public records request is the information contained is private, didn’t this records keeper violate the duty to keep the information confidential by making this statement?
Also, speaker confuses “native born” (anchor baby) with “natural born” (both parents U.S. citizens). The statement is false on its face as nobody disputes Zero’s daddy was a British colonial subject.
I’ve already answered you privately, but for the general posting, the answer is YES
The writer of the above sentence lacks education or intelligence. He or she should be talking about anthropogenic global warming (AGW).
With the exception of the first writer, I was not impressed with the statements and comments on the "birther" issue. Generally there is a lack of common sense and too many unsupported assertions about the people with unanswered questions.
Such a dearth of knowledge about a sitting president is unprecedented!
There are lack of information and access to Mr. Obama's writings, his kindergarten records, Punahou school records, Occidental College records, Columbia University records, Columbia thesis, Harvard Law School records, Harvard Law Review articles, scholarly articles from the University of Chicago, passport, medical records, selective service registration records, social security number irregularities, files from his years as an Illinois state senator, his Illinois State Bar Association records, any baptism records and adoption records.
This information lockout continues in his "transparent" presidency, with organization after organization having to sue under the FOI Act to get basic information about meetings, attendees, motives of people elected and appointed to govern us.
I read it again and while DE comes off as an arrogant fool WL doesn’t sound bad to me at all.... so its hard for me to see what is causing people to slam both of the writers
You have correctly encapsulated the entire article in one sentence.
Question 5) How do you predict that the birth certificate topic will end?
Bammy and Co. have had plenty of time to cook up a good-enough forgery. If he is ever actually forced to show something, that’s what he’ll show. And most of the people, most of the time, will believe him.
Its a shame the argument most frequently presented is, Oh all thats been settled. Move on.
MoveOn.org ring a bell? A common tactic is to declare troublesome issues resolved The blue dress tripped up Clinton. The birth certificate will undo the Kenyan Impostor.
I am a birther.
The saying goes,” If the facts are against you, attack the law. If the law is against you, attack the facts. If the facts and the law are against you, attack the prosecutor.” Dick Ellis seems to be using a variation of this, not to mention he is also an off his rocker, mad dog, crazy, liberal, Obamanoid.
What if his real biological daddy was Frank Marshall Davis? No flame, please. I'm just asking.
If I just want to stay with the facts #1 is an out right winner.
This is legit? I ask because Dick Ellis (DE) is frothing at the potty mouth through-out it, so much so to be considered a over-the-top satire of the anti-birther opinions which are in fact almost completely name-calling.
I just retired after 22 years in the military. I’ve had to provide my BC numerous times. I plan on going to school so I filled out the FAFSA. I got a notice yesterday that I need to provide a copy of my BC to verify my citizenship! I also had to give the original as proof when I applied for my passport.
In short, this article reflects the MSM and RINO approach to the issue - dance around the sidelines and never ever cut to the core issue.
IMHO, I think everyone on Obama’s side of the issue have realize, some from the very beginning, that the 44th President of the United States of America can well be the last President under the 1787 Constitution. He could also be the last Democratic Party President.
American has always sough a level playing field and prided ourselves in being a nation of laws. When (If?) this core value gets violated the resulting backlash will be disastrous for those who aided and abetted such an act.
We are, perhaps, seeing a massive conspiracy destined to keep the current elite in their bastions of power. A careful reading of world history from the 20th Century shows that their reaction to a crises has been unsuccessfully repeated on almost every content. Who says The US is exempt from this force?
Natural born citizen info:
William Lolli cites Article II Section I on “natural born
citizen” but AFAICS doesn’t say that BHO is not one, given
his own statements.
It just occurred to me that although birthplace (jus soli)
is indeed one part of the NBC requirment of Article II
Section 1, focusing on that alone might lead ppl to ignore
the other half, parents’ citizenship (jus sanguinis) this
could make ppl somehow think “anchor babies” etc are all