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The Obama Birth Certificate Debate: Two columnists go head-to-head on the birther movement
San ^ | March 28, 2011 | William Lolli and Dick Ellis

Posted on 03/29/2011 8:53:35 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

There has been a continued debate within our Opinion department on whether or not Barack Obama's presidency is legitimate, based on the conspiracy of his Hawaiian certificate of live birth. This topic continues to spike up, most recently with the mention earlier this month by potential presidential candidate Donald Trump. Opinion writers have pitched separate, individual articles about the birther topic for quite some time, but with a need to provide both sides of the argument, we created and sent five questions about the conspiracy to William Lolli and Dick Ellis, resident contributers for

Question 1) Explain the 'Obama Birth Certificate' debate, as you understand it, from its origins.

William Lolli: The so-called Obama Birth Certificate issue originated in 2007 when Obama announced his candidacy. From the beginning the issue has been mischaracterized by media and governmental forces that are vehemently opposed to the disclosure and validation of president Obama’s Constitutional credentials. The term 'birther' was allegedlly crafted by bloggers as a canard but has since morphed into a pejorative denotation of anyone questioning the validity of Obama’s adherence to the Constitution’s Article 2 Section 1 requirement that the president must be a “natural born Citizen”. The online New Oxford American Dictionary says a birther is: "a person who doubts the legitimacy of Barack Obama's presidency because of a conspiracy theory that Obama is not a natural-born US citizen." Whether or not a conspiracy exists is beside the point, and indeed, is a distraction from the point, as are other ancillary charges that birthers are racists or Islamophobes. At the heart of the birther issue are two fundamental positions stemming from the Rule of Law: accountability of government through transparency, and the desire to maintain the integrity of the Constitutional framework.

From 2007 to the present, birthers sought disclosure by appealing to elected officials, the press, and government agencies through FOIA requests, polls, emails, petitions, phone calls, interviews, letters, and lawsuits to try to gain access to Obama’s credential-claiming documents. They have not been successful in any of these ventures. More than 17 federal and state lawsuits have been filed, each seeking discovery that could confirm or deny Obama’s credential validity. In federal and state cases pre-trial motions dismissed the cases based upon a combination of grounds: insufficient state election laws to compel eligibility compliance, lack of standing by the parties, lack of subject matter jurisdiction, or that the “facts” had been sufficiently "twittered" into general acceptance as "true". No birther-case has ever been heard on the merits. No discovery has ever been granted, and no one has ever seen Obama’s original long-form certificate of live birth, much less any other documentation that would validate his place of birth. Thus Obama has never proven his Constitutional claims, Congress doesn’t have the guts to ask, the media exhibits distain on the subject, and the courts will not touch a political issue. The reason for this resistance is rooted in the magnitude of what is unknown about Obama: If Obama is ineligible then everything he has done in office the last two years is invalid and the financial-political effects of that truth would be catastrophic.

Dick Ellis: Obama was concocted in a laboratory by Bolshevik Jews intent on conquering the United States and the world with their one beautiful Frankenstein’s monster creation: the inexorable, indefatigable, god-head man – Barrack Hussein Obama. Their plan was brilliant. First, give him a name that will ring as all-American with the electorate. Second, forge a certificate of live birth and plant birth announcements in the Hawaiian newspapers – again because in 1961, Hawaii was as all-American as snüs and kebabs. Thirdly, educate him in madrahsas and teach him to hate the great Satan, USA. Finally, send him to the USA late in his life and abra-cadoodle – the perfect candidate for president! It’s a natural born conspiracy theory for natural born natural suckers. Delusional natural born xenophobes whose meager lease on free thought has run out are being controlled by corporations who seek to destabilize and destroy the public sector in the United States, and what better way to achieve these ends than by creating doubt about the legitimacy of the President. Do I sound mad? Do I sound like I’m espousing a conspiracy theory? Well, let’s just sit back and let the porridge call the oatmeal bland.

It’s xenophobia masquerading as democratic vigilance. At its heart is a dangerous idea that attempts to paint the democratically elected president of the United States as a kind of vile outsider who doesn’t belong, who doesn’t share our ideals, beliefs and core values. The president, birtherism ultimately expounds, isn’t one of us. Birtherism is thinly veiled monoculturalism. It’s evident in its proponents shared beliefs that Obama is a secret Muslim. That Obama hates white people. It’s all part of the package. Of course, a person can be an irrational birther and not believe the president is a secret white-hating Muslim, but the overlap in these beliefs is condemning, and these separate and disparate beliefs, which too often hold hands in a single person, are damning to birtherism as a whole.

Question 2) Where is the controversy today?

WL: With the failure of the courts to allow any examination of the merits based upon forensicly obtained evidence, birthers have turned to various other ancillary investigative venues to obtain disclosure.

•Recent documents substantiate that Obama only attended Columbia University for 9 months in 1982-1983, contrary to official accounts. •FOIA and other requests have been submitted to the State Department for passport and travel records. •The Selective Service and Social Security Administrations have been asked for documentation regarding Obama’s Connecticut-based social security number 042-68-4425. •Investigators have traced the number prior to Obama’s [ending in 4424] to Newington, Conn. resident Thomas Wood, deceased at age 19. •To date no government agency can explain how Obama obtained the Connecticut number when at no point in his child or early adult years was he a resident of the state. •Investigations continue into Hawaiian infant-death records for sequential relationships with Obama’s COLB record number 151 01961 010641. •The Nordyke twins have made public their long-form certificates with numbers ending in 37 and 38. •There are several infant-death candidates that may have had birth certificate numbers issued during the August 1961 time frame. These efforts hope to yield more information now kept from the public.

DE: Today, birtherism is a matter of right wing political convenience. Besides the fact that the birther thing is one big ridiculous distraction from all the actual and very real problems currently facing our country and our world, it is useful for politicians as a dogwhistle. It isn’t 100% politically correct or fashionable to call someone a dirty stinking UnAmerican brown shit stain who hates Jesus and apple pie. That kind of talk is simply not allowed, but it’s possible to allude to that kind of thing. It’s very easy to thanks to the f**kwitted, evidence-free birther conspiracy theory. That’s why it’s beneficial for Donald Trump, a man who has got to be smarter than he looks, to imply that – golly gee willickers, guys, you know, hyuck, I just don’t know if Obama is an American or not since nobody from his childhood remembers him at all – excepting of course, for his kindergarten teachers.

Question 3) Is there a specific party or group pushing this topic? Who has vocally supported it? Who has vocally come out against it?

WL: Vocally supported disclosure of credentials: WorldNetDaily, 450,000 from an unofficial WND poll, Dean Singleton, Notre Dame Law Professor Charles Rice, Chris Matthews, Luke Scott, Tim Walberg, Newt Gingrich, Senator David Vitter, Camille Paglia, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin, Laura Ingraham, Donald Trump, Sarah Palin, Neil Abercrombie, governor of Hawaii, USAF Lt. General McInerney, Michael Savage, G. Gordon Liddy, Brian Sussman, Lars Larson, Bob Grant, Jim Quinn, Rose Tennent, Barbara Simpson, Mark Davis, Fred Grandy, Rick Roberts, Lou Dobbs, Congressmen Roy Blunt, Nathan Deal, Michele Bachman, Steve King, Bob Inglis, Bill Posey, Trent Franks, JD Hayworth, and a CNN/Opinion Aug 2010 Poll that 25% of Americans think Obama is not born in the US. Vocally against: Most mainstream news outlets including NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, Fox News Channel, blogs of the Left, the majority leadership of Democratic and Republican parties, every state Secretary of State, the Executive Branch including the Administration, State Department, Justice Department, Social Security Administration, Selective Service Administration and most federal agencies.

DE: The conspiracy is popular, of course, among the far right wing, which is pretty much the only right wing left in this country. The birther conspiracy theory rests on unbridled hatred of anything different than the person holding the theory up as truth. It’s all part of the greater right wing plan for America. The first thing a birther does if you call them on their racist shit is cry and whine and deny it, and then they cry and whine and complain that they’re being represented in the media as something they’re not. If a right winger can’t blubber on and on about how they’re being victimized, then they’ve got no defense. It’s their only card. That mean old left wing media is misrepresenting us and taking our words out of context. Pity us up here on our big f**king cross.

Question 4) Any similarity to this topic, to anything else in our history (or another country's history)?

WL: There has been an ongoing controversy concerning Chester A. Arthur, 21st President of the United States (1881-1885) as to his also not have been qualified for the office. Arthur’s father, a Protestant preacher from Ireland, was a British subject who did not naturalize as a U.S. citizen until some years after the future President's birth. There has also been some question about eligibility of presidential candidate Charles Evans Hughes, Sr. (April 11, 1862 – August 27, 1948), the 11th Chief Justice of the United States and Republican candidate in the 1916 U.S. Presidential election, losing to Woodrow Wilson.

DE: It’s become quite fashionable in politics to demonize the entirety of the democratic process. Both the traditional Democratic left in this country and the howlingly retarded right wing complain of voter intimidation, voter fraud, voter machine fraud and problems with tallying up the peoples’ votes. The anti-Bush jr. faction claimed he stole the election, and that there was wide spread voter fraud and intimidation of voters occurring in Florida. Now, the right wing goombahs are making allegations that ACORN helped to steal the election and that Obama isn’t really an American. Anything to cast doubt on our Democracy stands to serve the corporate masters, and it will continue until the people of this country have no democracy. Until the people of this country have nothing but wild-eyed goons screaming the end is nigh from the doorway of the liquor store. (Basically, a bunch of Glenn Beck’s without television or radio shows)

Question 5) How do you predict that the birth certificate topic will end?

WL: It is fairly obvious that those who stand the most to lose, if in fact Obama is constitutionally ineligible, will oppose the vetting processes. If Obama is ineligible as president, the reversal-effects of his nullification will have lasting and devastating financial and political consequences. Both political parties, all branches of government, and every American—indeed, the world-- will feel the impact. Individual and corporate culpability will be widespread, because, to paraphrase Lincoln, all of the People were willingly fooled for some of the time. But truth has a power all its own. Though painful, truth does purify and restore. And the birthers are hopeful that only truth can preserve the sovereign integrity of the Rule of Law and the Constitutional resiliency of our Republic.

DE: It will all end in ignorance and tears. The new right wing of this country is one intent to ignore all evidence. They’ve even made proud assertions to the fact that they do not live in a reality-based community, and that’s evident. From the baseless and evidence-free birther and death panel conspiracies on one hand, to the dismissal of the mountains of evidence and scientific consensus concerning anthropomorphic global warming and evolutionary biology on the other. They are a group of heads-in-the-sand denialists, contrarians and malignant dividers. Birthers are but a small symptom of their grand old clan, and aren’t worth the honest time and attention that has been afforded to them.

Furthermore, and of the utmost importance, this is America motherf**kers, Obama is innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof is upon the prosecuting parties, so bring on your piles of evidence. Let’s just manage to get through exhibit A without stumbling down a road of bullshit so dense it forms the birther equivalency of a neutron star. As George W. said, “Bring it on!” But you’ve got nothing to bring. It’s a conspiracy a-go-go. Conspiracy theories are dangerous. Passion is an exaggeration, and conspiracy theories are the result of misguided passions, leading to ridiculous, but sometimes even dangerous exaggerations that can lead an otherwise rational nation into the depths of genocidal atrocity. How birtherism might result in the same horrors as those brought about by belief in the veracity of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is something that from this vantage point in time cannot be seen, but the lesson is easy to see. We must be vigilant against these passionate exaggerations. And stamp them out before they become our national nightmare, our national disgrace and our democracy’s greatest shame. It is at our peril that we take this viral meme of anti-democratic race-hate as anything but what it so obviously is.

TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: birth; birthcertificate; birthers; certificate; certifigate; hawaii; naturalborncitizen; obama
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To: woofie

I’ve already answered you privately, but for the general posting, the answer is YES

21 posted on 03/30/2011 12:51:18 AM PDT by vette6387 (Enough Already!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
From the baseless and evidence-free birther and death panel conspiracies on one hand, to the dismissal of the mountains of evidence and scientific consensus concerning anthropomorphic global warming and evolutionary biology on the other.

The writer of the above sentence lacks education or intelligence. He or she should be talking about anthropogenic global warming (AGW).

With the exception of the first writer, I was not impressed with the statements and comments on the "birther" issue. Generally there is a lack of common sense and too many unsupported assertions about the people with unanswered questions.

Such a dearth of knowledge about a sitting president is unprecedented!

There are lack of information and access to Mr. Obama's writings, his kindergarten records, Punahou school records, Occidental College records, Columbia University records, Columbia thesis, Harvard Law School records, Harvard Law Review articles, scholarly articles from the University of Chicago, passport, medical records, selective service registration records, social security number irregularities, files from his years as an Illinois state senator, his Illinois State Bar Association records, any baptism records and adoption records.

This information lockout continues in his "transparent" presidency, with organization after organization having to sue under the FOI Act to get basic information about meetings, attendees, motives of people elected and appointed to govern us.

22 posted on 03/30/2011 2:07:49 AM PDT by olezip
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To: vette6387

I read it again and while DE comes off as an arrogant fool WL doesn’t sound bad to me at all.... so its hard for me to see what is causing people to slam both of the writers

23 posted on 03/30/2011 2:13:34 AM PDT by woofie
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To: Terry Mross
"Ellis, typical liberal, has no defense so he starts out by calling people names and attempting to use sarcasm."

You have correctly encapsulated the entire article in one sentence.

24 posted on 03/30/2011 2:37:20 AM PDT by 101voodoo
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Question 5) How do you predict that the birth certificate topic will end?

Bammy and Co. have had plenty of time to cook up a good-enough forgery. If he is ever actually forced to show something, that’s what he’ll show. And most of the people, most of the time, will believe him.

25 posted on 03/30/2011 5:06:39 AM PDT by flowerplough (Thomas Sowell: Those who look only at Obama's deeds tend to become Obama's critics.)
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To: TigerClaws

It’s a shame the “argument” most frequently presented is, “Oh all that’s been settled. Move on.” ring a bell? A common tactic is to declare troublesome issues resolved The blue dress tripped up Clinton. The birth certificate will undo the Kenyan Impostor.

I am a birther.

26 posted on 03/30/2011 5:11:18 AM PDT by y6162
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

The saying goes,” If the facts are against you, attack the law. If the law is against you, attack the facts. If the facts and the law are against you, attack the prosecutor.” Dick Ellis seems to be using a variation of this, not to mention he is also an off his rocker, mad dog, crazy, liberal, Obamanoid.

27 posted on 03/30/2011 5:27:24 AM PDT by READINABLUESTATE (“It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once.” - David Hume)
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To: TigerClaws
...nobody disputes Zero’s daddy was a British colonial subject.

What if his real biological daddy was Frank Marshall Davis? No flame, please. I'm just asking.


28 posted on 03/30/2011 5:41:11 AM PDT by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Guy one tries to use facts and logic, fag two uses name calling and foul language, that low life caulk eater {much like this sentence}.

If I just want to stay with the facts #1 is an out right winner.

29 posted on 03/30/2011 5:53:15 AM PDT by USS Alaska (Nuke the terrorist savages.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

This is legit? I ask because Dick Ellis (DE) is frothing at the potty mouth through-out it, so much so to be considered a over-the-top satire of the anti-birther opinions which are in fact almost completely name-calling.

30 posted on 03/30/2011 6:03:41 AM PDT by bvw
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I just retired after 22 years in the military. I’ve had to provide my BC numerous times. I plan on going to school so I filled out the FAFSA. I got a notice yesterday that I need to provide a copy of my BC to verify my citizenship! I also had to give the original as proof when I applied for my passport.

31 posted on 03/30/2011 6:11:30 AM PDT by rfreedom4u ("A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against thos against good government.")
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
You quickly notice that the questions did not address the core issue about the birth certificate issue - does Obama have a certified birth certificate enabling him to be constitutionally qualified to be President?

In short, this article reflects the MSM and RINO approach to the issue - dance around the sidelines and never ever cut to the core issue.


IMHO, I think everyone on Obama’s side of the issue have realize, some from the very beginning, that the 44th President of the United States of America can well be the last President under the 1787 Constitution. He could also be the last Democratic Party President.

American has always sough a level playing field and prided ourselves in being a nation of laws. When (If?) this core value gets violated the resulting backlash will be disastrous for those who aided and abetted such an act.

We are, perhaps, seeing a massive conspiracy destined to keep the current elite in their bastions of power. A careful reading of world history from the 20th Century shows that their reaction to a crises has been unsuccessfully repeated on almost every content. Who says The US is exempt from this force?

32 posted on 03/30/2011 6:18:36 AM PDT by Nip (TANSTAAFL)
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To: bvw
As far as I know it's a regular opinion piece in a local newspaper.
33 posted on 03/30/2011 7:04:11 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet ("You cannot invade the US There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." Yamamoto)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet


34 posted on 03/30/2011 8:22:40 AM PDT by Marmolade
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Natural born citizen info:

Donald Trump can be contacted through the following:
for Trump posting and contact:

35 posted on 03/30/2011 9:33:31 AM PDT by patriot08 (TEXAS GAL- born and bred and proud of it!)
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To: Marmolade; All
I liked the article because it shows who is full of hate. The left is always attributing hate as what comes from the RIGHT. However it pretty evident that it's the exact opposite.
36 posted on 03/30/2011 11:32:21 AM PDT by Coffee_drinker (The best defense is a strong preemptive strike.)
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To: patlin; 2ndDivisionVet

William Lolli cites Article II Section I on “natural born
citizen” but AFAICS doesn’t say that BHO is not one, given
his own statements.

37 posted on 03/30/2011 6:51:48 PM PDT by cycjec
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To: newzjunkey; 2ndDivisionVet

It just occurred to me that although birthplace (jus soli)
is indeed one part of the NBC requirment of Article II
Section 1, focusing on that alone might lead ppl to ignore
the other half, parents’ citizenship (jus sanguinis) this
could make ppl somehow think “anchor babies” etc are all

38 posted on 03/30/2011 6:55:18 PM PDT by cycjec
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