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‘Non-discovery’ of space-time ripples opens door to birth of the Universe
The Times ^ | 8/20/2009 | Mark Henderson

Posted on 08/19/2009 7:20:29 PM PDT by bruinbirdman

Scientists have peered further back in time than ever before using instruments designed to search for a phenomenon predicted by Albert Einstein almost a century ago but not yet proven to exist.

An American observatory hunting for ripples in space and time called gravitational waves has produced its most significant results yet, despite not having directly detected any.


Tycho's Supernova

The “non-discovery” offers insights into the state of the Universe just 60 seconds into its existence. Previous research has been unable to look back in time further than about 380,000 years after the big bang.

The new window on the dawn of time has been opened by the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory (LIGO), a network of three detectors that have been seeking evidence of gravitational waves since 2005.

These waves, which are believed to stretch and squeeze space and time as they pass, were predicted by Einstein in his theory of relativity. Violent events, such as a supernova explosion or the collision of two black holes, should make the biggest and most detectable waves. While their existence is accepted by astrophysicists, they have never been directly detected. LIGO has not yet found any gravitational waves either, and this has important implications for astrophysics and cosmology.

Certain theoretical models of what happened in the first moments of the cosmos predict that gravitational waves should be visible in LIGO’s data. As none have been detected, the “non-findings” narrow down possible explanations for the growth of the Universe.

The research, which is published in the journal Nature , also offers proof that gravitational-wave observatories will open up new horizons for astronomy, allowing scientists to examine aspects of the cosmos that have previously been hidden from view, such as supernovas and black holes. The first 380,000 years after the big

(Excerpt) Read more at timesonline.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: anisotropy; astronomy; bigbang; cosmology; inflation; physics; science; scientism; space; stringtheory
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1 posted on 08/19/2009 7:20:29 PM PDT by bruinbirdman
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To: bruinbirdman

Must be how the RATS are justifying health care...


2 posted on 08/19/2009 7:22:18 PM PDT by The Magical Mischief Tour
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To: The Magical Mischief Tour

and global warming.


3 posted on 08/19/2009 7:26:01 PM PDT by taxtruth (WE CAN'T AFFORD UNCLE SAMMY ANYMORE!)
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To: bruinbirdman

Ok, I am a moron.

How in the hell do they peer back in time???

Totally amazed at our knowledge and abilities. Still no cure for cancer.


4 posted on 08/19/2009 7:27:33 PM PDT by autumnraine (You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out!)
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To: autumnraine

See the sun in the sky? You’re seeing it how it was 8 minutes ago. Now extrapolate that out to something like the Hubble, peering into the far reaches of the universe...


5 posted on 08/19/2009 7:30:25 PM PDT by RepublitarianRoger2
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To: bruinbirdman

THIS could be the forum to discuss the logical proof for God’s existence!


6 posted on 08/19/2009 7:31:28 PM PDT by 2harddrive
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To: bruinbirdman
"“Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”" - Sherlock Holmes
7 posted on 08/19/2009 7:32:41 PM PDT by Bratch
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To: autumnraine
They are only ‘figuratively’ looking back in time. They are analyzing information that would only be reaching the earth after x amount of time, even though it is information generated millionsnof years ago. Remember, even light, the fastest thing we know, only travels at about 385,000 miles per second (I ting - I'm digging back in time in my own memory of high school history class), so with the known universe at least billions of miles across,even light doesn't cross it instantaneously - and other things, like gravity waves, travel a lot slower than the speed of light!
8 posted on 08/19/2009 7:32:55 PM PDT by Kay Ludlow (Government actions ALWAYS have unintended consequences...)
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To: Kay Ludlow
Approximately 186,000 miles/second :-)
9 posted on 08/19/2009 7:35:42 PM PDT by RepublitarianRoger2
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To: Kay Ludlow

386,000 per/sec.


10 posted on 08/19/2009 7:38:10 PM PDT by Empireoftheatom48 (Zero will never be my President, never!!!!!)
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To: Kay Ludlow

You are right on. If you reverse the situation, a being on another planet could be pointing one of these at the earth and just now be seeing the time of Christ walking the earth or Moses, or even further back to the birth of Joan Rivers.


11 posted on 08/19/2009 7:38:10 PM PDT by johncocktoasten (Practicing asymetrical thread warfare against anti-Palin Trolls)
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To: RepublitarianRoger2

386,000 miles/per/sec!!!


12 posted on 08/19/2009 7:39:35 PM PDT by Empireoftheatom48 (Zero will never be my President, never!!!!!)
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To: autumnraine

When you look at a star in the sky you may be “seeing” what that star looked like millions of years ago if that star happens to be millions of light-years from earth. Similarly, these scientists are “looking” in areas of the sky (the universe) thought to be furthest from earth. Theat’s how they “peer back in time”.

What I’ve always wondered is, if scientists could “peer back in time” to one nanosecond into the existence of the universe and discovered a mirrored surface which was perfectly aligned toward the scientists, what would that mirror be reflecting?


13 posted on 08/19/2009 7:40:23 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: Empireoftheatom48

Nope. Approximately 186,000 miles/second in a vacuum.


14 posted on 08/19/2009 7:41:17 PM PDT by RepublitarianRoger2
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To: RepublitarianRoger2

I’m sorry you are right 186,000 per/sec :(


15 posted on 08/19/2009 7:42:32 PM PDT by Empireoftheatom48 (Zero will never be my President, never!!!!!)
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To: bruinbirdman

The big bang idea is bad physics and bad theology rolled into a package.


16 posted on 08/19/2009 7:44:40 PM PDT by wendy1946
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To: bruinbirdman

Aha... Now we can work on star drive technology to surf the grav waves.

Kowabunga dude.


17 posted on 08/19/2009 7:46:40 PM PDT by coconutt2000 (NO MORE PEACE FOR OIL!!! DOWN WITH TYRANTS, TERRORISTS, AND TIMIDCRATS!!!! (3-T's For World Peace))
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To: bruinbirdman
A non discovery making headlines. :)

18 posted on 08/19/2009 7:47:46 PM PDT by allmost
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To: bruinbirdman

I SEE YOU..

19 posted on 08/19/2009 7:49:54 PM PDT by seawolf101
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To: RepublitarianRoger2
Approximately 186,000 miles/second :-)

Or about 300,000 kilometers/second.

Or, generally more usefully, about 3X10^8 meters/second. ;-)

20 posted on 08/19/2009 7:50:43 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: allmost
A non discovery making headlines. :)

Probably the most famous non-discovery in modern science was the Michelson Morley experiment, which was supposed to detect the presence of the "ether." They discovered nothing.... and from that finding, Einstein formulated his theory of Special Relativity.

21 posted on 08/19/2009 7:51:33 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: johncocktoasten
or even further back to the birth of Joan Rivers.

Where they might see Helen Thomas changing her diaper.

22 posted on 08/19/2009 7:51:53 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: 2harddrive

“the logical proof for God’s existence!”

I wish I could be confident that you are right, but my knowledge of most of these atronomer/physicist types is that about 999 out of 1000 of them are anti-God heathens.

IMHO they are more likely attempting to prove the NON-existence of God. They will eventually be proven fools, but it may not be until they appear at the Great White Throne Judgement.


23 posted on 08/19/2009 7:53:29 PM PDT by Tucker39 (I Tim. 1:15b " .....Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.")
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To: coconutt2000
Aha... Now we can work on star drive technology to surf the grav waves.

That's going to be difficult if there are none.

24 posted on 08/19/2009 7:53:36 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: bruinbirdman
An American observatory hunting for ripples in space and time called gravitational waves

Well-l-l-l-l-l, since we needed something to explain the lack of mass to maintain galaxy shape (Dark matter) and we needed something to explain the accelerated expansion of the universe (Dark Energy), all we need now to explain the lack of gravitational waves is Dark Ripples. (/Sarcasm)

25 posted on 08/19/2009 7:53:42 PM PDT by The Cajun (Mind numbed robot , ditto-head, Hannitized, Levinite)
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To: Lancey Howard
What I’ve always wondered is, if scientists could “peer back in time” to one nanosecond into the existence of the universe and discovered a mirrored surface which was perfectly aligned toward the scientists, what would that mirror be reflecting?

Well, considering the reflected light would take just as long to return, you probably wouldn't see it if it were at that point. The light reflected from us would have to reach the mirror, then reflect back, doubling the time frame of the distance you are looking at. One of those fun space-time things to contemplate but only a few in the world can calculate (I wouldn't even pretend to try..)

26 posted on 08/19/2009 7:55:01 PM PDT by mnehring
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To: Empireoftheatom48

Actually, 300,000 km/sec.


27 posted on 08/19/2009 7:56:04 PM PDT by 17th Miss Regt
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To: r9etb
Yes. The concept of ether isn't completely dead though. It might have to be revived if (when) the realization that gravity, being a function of space-time, cannot be quantified along the lines of physical theory sets in. Not in the classical sense of course but vacuum pressure is real and eases some of the inconsistencies in modern models such as expansion and gravity as a monopole. Not going to see the discovery of a graviton in my lifetime. Just my opinion.
28 posted on 08/19/2009 7:58:00 PM PDT by allmost
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To: wendy1946
"The big bang idea is bad physics and bad theology rolled into a package."

Not at all. The Big Bang theory doesn't attempt to explain why the bang occurred, only that it did occur.

When Lemaître, riffing off early work by Einstein postulated what came to be known as the Big Bang, he makes no attempts - and neither does anyone else that I'm aware - to speculate or hypothesis what (or who) may have been the impetus for the bang.

29 posted on 08/19/2009 7:58:55 PM PDT by OldDeckHand (No Socialized Medicine, No Way, No How, No Time)
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To: bruinbirdman

All I want to know is, when do we get JetPacks?!!


30 posted on 08/19/2009 8:04:55 PM PDT by Boiler Plate ("Why be difficult, when with just a little more work, you can be impossible" Mom)
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To: Tucker39

Nope. I can prove God’s existence myself. I will discuss it on these pages in the morning. TTYL.


31 posted on 08/19/2009 8:07:21 PM PDT by 2harddrive
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To: Boiler Plate
"All I want to know is, when do we get JetPacks?!!"

In just a few short months, you too can own your own JetPack...

Kiwi inventor launches 'world's first practical jetpack'


32 posted on 08/19/2009 8:08:08 PM PDT by OldDeckHand (No Socialized Medicine, No Way, No How, No Time)
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To: bruinbirdman

“The “non-discovery” offers insights into the state of the Universe just 60 seconds into its existence.”

And what do they see? I’ll bet they see an empty and formless earth just like the Bible says.


33 posted on 08/19/2009 8:10:22 PM PDT by taxesareforever (Quick justice for the senseless killing of Marine Lance Cpl. Robert Crutchfield.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Ping.


34 posted on 08/19/2009 8:13:01 PM PDT by rdl6989
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To: bruinbirdman

Here is a thought.

An observation is only as good as the instrument used and the perspective/vantage-point at the point of observation.

One could have a very tiny, microscopic vantage point and a very narrow idea of what to look for and how to look for it, and with the best instrument designed around those limits produce a ton of “data” which, in the end, may prove, in a sort of circular logic - nothing more than that our observation instruments work because they obtain what we designed them to obtain, from our limitations of knowledge and perspective/vantage point and using the huge theories we have built with those limitations.

I truly believe that whenever we are finally “star travelers” that many of our theories and assumptions about the universe, its age, how creation continues and many other things will be blown away by knowledge gained in getting to the stars and what we actually find there.

Much of astronomical science has less hard first hand facts and more theory than even the man-made global warming hoax.


35 posted on 08/19/2009 8:13:20 PM PDT by Wuli
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To: SunkenCiv

Pinglist Ping


36 posted on 08/19/2009 8:14:03 PM PDT by MetaThought
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To: 2harddrive

“THIS could be the forum to discuss the logical proof for God’s existence!.”

Nah, you’re trying to come up with some sort of unified theory to rationalize the natural and supernatural aspects of the universe. Einstein tried to develop a unified theory of just the natural universe, and was unsuccessful (and he was smart). What chance do you think you have?


37 posted on 08/19/2009 8:16:27 PM PDT by Habibi
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To: bruinbirdman
‘Non-discovery’ of space-time ripples opens door to birth of the Universe

Just show us the certificate.

38 posted on 08/19/2009 8:17:49 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (this slope is getting slippereeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...)
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To: r9etb; SunkenCiv
"Probably the most famous non-discovery in modern science was ?"

yitbos

39 posted on 08/19/2009 8:19:20 PM PDT by bruinbirdman ("Those who control language control minds.")
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To: bruinbirdman

Here is a thought.

An observation is only as good as the instrument used and the perspective/vantage-point at the point of observation.

One could have a very tiny, microscopic vantage point and a very narrow idea of what to look for and how to look for it, and with the best instrument designed around those limits produce a ton of “data” which, in the end, may prove, in a sort of circular logic - nothing more than that our observation instruments work because they obtain what we designed them to obtain, from our limitations of knowledge and perspective/vantage point and using the huge theories we have built with those limitations.

I truly believe that whenever we are finally “star travelers” that many of our theories and assumptions about the universe, its age, how creation continues and many other things will be blown away by knowledge gained in getting to the stars and what we actually find there.

Much of astronomical science has less hard first hand facts and more theory than even the man-made global warming hoax.

I believe that ideas like “ripples in space-time” are due precisely to the limitations of such a microscopic perspective of our tiny vantage point and our limited real knowledge. I think it is more about how things we don’t fully understand appear to us, than how they actually are.


40 posted on 08/19/2009 8:23:58 PM PDT by Wuli
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To: Kay Ludlow

” ... other things, like gravity waves, travel a lot slower than the speed of light!”

Actually, gravity waves are today theorized to be associated to the propagation of massless elementary particles called gravitons. According to quantum field theory, all massless elementary particles, including the photon and graviton, propagate (in vacuum) at the same speed, about 3 times 10^8 meters per second. This is called the speed of light, although it is the (vacuum) propagation speed of any massless elementary particle, not just the photon. Through the wave-particle duality of quantum mechanics, this means that, in turn, the associated waves (electromagnetic waves in the case of the photon, and gravitational waves in the case of the graviton) also travel at the same speed, the speed of light.

(Although photons and gravitons are both massless and propagate at the same speed, there are important differences between them, the most significant being that photons are what are called spin-1 particles and gravitons are spin-2 particles, which turns out to ultimately provide the basis for why photons mediate electromagnetic interactions and gravitons mediate gravitational interactions.)


41 posted on 08/19/2009 8:30:13 PM PDT by leebee vmizrach
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To: r9etb

They just didn’t find the ether. Its there.

parsy, who just knows it.


42 posted on 08/19/2009 8:34:05 PM PDT by parsifal ("Where am I? How did I end up in this hospital room? What is my name?" Anonymous)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; SunkenCiv

pinging my favorite cosmologists...

I think I pinged y’all to a thread on the LIGO a while back.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/2266921/posts?page=78
One of the testable predictions of Hatch’s theory is that LIGO, the Laser Interferometer Gravitational Wave Observatory, will fail to detect gravity waves. As of July 2007, this prediction stands.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2270920/posts
To: Alamo-Girl
Thanks, AG.
From what I can gather about this scientific controversy, one of the approaches that was supposed to settle it was the Laser Interferometer Gravitational Wave Observatory being used as a gravity wave detector. Has it found gravity waves? If not, would that indicate an upper bound of how energetic they would be?

Gravity wave detector all set
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/sci_tech/2003/denver_2003/2774163.stm

The Suppression of Inconvenient Facts in Physics http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2266921/posts

Hatch’s proposed alternative to special and general relativity theory, Modified Lorentz Aether Gauge Theory (MLET), agrees with General Relativity at first order but corrects many astronomical anomalies that GRT cannot account for without ad-hoc assumptions, such as the anomalous rotation of galaxies and certain anomalies in planetary orbits. In addition, the force of gravity is self-limiting in MLET, which eliminates point singularities (black holes), one of the major shortcomings of GRT. One of the testable predictions of Hatch’s theory is that LIGO, the Laser Interferometer Gravitational Wave Observatory, will fail to detect gravity waves. As of July 2007, this prediction stands. (30)

http://www2b.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/archives/archive51/newposts/347/topic347102.shtm

21 posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 12:28:05 AM by Kevmo (So America gets what America deserves - the destruction of its Constitution. ~Leo Donofrio, 6/1/09)
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43 posted on 08/19/2009 8:35:59 PM PDT by Kevmo (So America gets what America deserves - the destruction of its Constitution. ~Leo Donofrio, 6/1/09)
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To: Tucker39

“IMHO they are more likely attempting to prove the NON-existence of God.”

Hmmm. As one who taught a year of Physics recitation (and rubbed shoulders with said scientists), I would say that you’re exhibiting a bit of religious paranoia. It ain’t like that in the Physics world. Physicist aren’t into the supernatural, and certainly don’t try to disprove the existence of God.

IMHO, more contemporary religious leaders attempt to disprove existence of God than scientists. I could go into the various sects that don’t believe in God’s existence, as weird as that may seem, but if you’re any sort of expert, you know exactly what I’m talking about. This ain’t the place to do it though. Suffice to say that scientists are busy enough just dealing with the physical world, vs. the supernatural where physical laws don’t apply.


44 posted on 08/19/2009 8:38:44 PM PDT by Habibi
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To: El Gato

No problem, we’ll simply fire up the Infinite Improbability Drive!

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_Improbability_Drive)


45 posted on 08/19/2009 8:39:51 PM PDT by skepsel
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To: Kevmo

Thanks for the ping, dear Kevmo!


46 posted on 08/19/2009 8:45:50 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: bruinbirdman
"Probably the most famous non-discovery in modern science was ?"

I thought it was "Happy Fun Ball".

47 posted on 08/19/2009 8:46:08 PM PDT by BulletBobCo
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To: Wuli
"Much of astronomical science has less hard first hand facts "

That's why astrophysics is called a theoretical science. But, those theories frequently prove to be accurate.

When Einstein postulated the phenomenon of time dilation in his Theory of Relativity in 1905, it wasn't proven to be accurate until 1971 - some 66 years later. Einstein's ability to conceptualize the mathematical structure of the universe was far superior to the contemporary ability to create experiments to either prove or disprove those mathematical theories.

That's the purpose of theoretical science, to break away from the tethers or contemporary limitations of other physical sciences to explain the unknown.

48 posted on 08/19/2009 8:46:47 PM PDT by OldDeckHand (No Socialized Medicine, No Way, No How, No Time)
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To: parsifal
;-)

parsy, who just knows it.

You know, I was concerned the other day when I saw you make a post that didn't have your signature "parsy" quip...

49 posted on 08/19/2009 8:50:59 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: r9etb; parsifal
"You know, I was concerned the other day when I saw you make a post that didn't have your signature "parsy" quip..."

Parsy, who I suspect samples the "ether" from time to time. :-)

50 posted on 08/19/2009 8:57:52 PM PDT by OldDeckHand (No Socialized Medicine, No Way, No How, No Time)
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