Posted on 09/30/2008 10:12:46 AM PDT by george76
I am sure that neither of us believe that a Muslim who saws a Jewish American's head off (for being a Jew and being an American, in that order) chanting “Allah Akbar” is a “good Muslim”.
The relevant question is... Does the Muslim believe that by sawing a Jewish Americans head off while chanting “Allah Akbar” he is being a “good Muslim”. And the answer is YES. He does think it his religious duty to saw the heads off Jewish Americans while chanting “Allah Akbar”, and this is a COMMON current within Islamic thought, witness the words of one of the most famous and influential Islamic cleric of our age.
“To kill the Americans and their allies — civilians and military — is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque [Jerusalem] and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim.”
Osama bin Laden
Marxist-Leninist Liberation Theologians invoke the name of the Christian God to justify bloody Communist revolution and the destruction of the USA. Does the notion that Liberation Theology is not Christian also fall under the “no true Scutsman” falacy?
And yes. If anyone who claims to be Christian and claims salvation in his name, isn't a “true Christian” because you disagree with them (like perhaps Obama and the Rev. Wright) then THAT TOO is a “No true Scotsman” fallacy.
But why the attempted change of subject? Do Liberation Theologists cut the heads off people chanting “God is Great”? No they do not. However Islamists regularly cut peoples heads off chanting about “Allah” being great.
Your position is that anybody who does anything reprehensible couldn't possibly be religious. That is a sterling example of the “no true Scotsman” fallacy.
==Your notion that Islamic terrorists are not Islamic, despite them claiming to be Islamic, and following the clear words of Islamic clerics is clearly in error.
I didn’t say that Muslim terrorists cannot be Islamic. I simply pointed out that upon closer inspection many of them have turned out to be secular Communists and Socialists. And while I don’t agree with Pape’s stupid Ron Paul-esque foreign policy conclusions, I certainly DO agree with the data—namely, that 71% of Hezbollah suicide bombers turned out to be communist/socialist revolutionaries. Nor do I think it an accident that Hezbollah grew out of a movement known as Islamic Marxism that was started and controlled by the Soviets for the purposes of infiltrating Islam. Nor do I think it an accident that Hezbollah puts out hundreds of pictures celebrating Marxist-Leninist revolutionaries like Che Guevara. Nor do I think it is an accident that Osama bin Laden’s #2 is a known KGB/FSB agent.
==And yes. If anyone who claims to be Christian and claims salvation in his name, isn’t a “true Christian” because you disagree with them (like perhaps Obama and the Rev. Wright) then THAT TOO is a “No true Scotsman” fallacy.
Tell me Allmendream, are the following Liberation “theologians” genuine Catholics, or are they simply Marxist-Leninist revolutionaries dressed in Catholic vestments?:
Liberation Theologists played a key role in the 1979 Sandinista takeover of Nicaragua. “Father” Ernesto Cardenal, who declared that “only when I converted to Marxism could I write religious poetry”8 and that “I am above all a revolutionist and as such fight for… a dictatorship of the proletariat, in which surely it cannot show itself feeble toward the enemies of its fatherland, not even in moments when one comes to the point of having to execute men for this purpose,”9 was appointed Minister of Culture in the new Marxist dictatorship. “Father” Miguel d’Escoto also backed the revolution, and was trusted enough to be named Foreign Minister of the Sandinista regime. Upon winning the Lenin Peace Prize from the Soviet Union in 1987, d’Escoto was ecstatic: “This prize makes us Nicaraguans come into even closer contact with Lenin, that great personality of your state and of all mankind who is the passionate champion of peace.”10
The analogy between armed revolutionary “Christians” and armed revolutionary “Islamists” is flawed from the outset. The two religions are not analogous and there is no moral equivalence between the two.
One actually IS a religion of peace.
And now your statements seems to be retreating from your previous stance that the “vast majority” of terrorists are secular “Darwinists”. Now you admit that many are in fact Islamists. A small minority then? If the “vast majority” are secularists?
And If d’Escoto and Cardenal have not been excommunicated by the Catholic church then they are still Catholics.
It is like a Jew in 15th Century Spain saying that no “true Catholic” would subject them to the inquisition, so there is really nothing to worry about.
Islamic clerics call for terrorist action. Terrorist who are Islamic respond by committing terrorism, and when they are explaining why, say that it is their view of Islam that prompted them to act. You can argue till your blue in the face that they aren't “truly Islamic”, but that is tragically beside the point.
The terrorists think they are Islamic, their cleric thinks killing Jews and Americans is an Islamic act, and a large portion of Islamic society applauds their actions.
Happy birthday moron. Good luck making it to 25.
I don’t know what else to tell you, Allmendream. Each time I make what should strike you as an outrageous claim, you don’t even ask me to supply the evidence. And when I go ahead and supply the evidence anyway, you don’t even address it. It is very important to distinguish between Commie Terrorists in Muslim disguise and genuine Muslims. I have been researching this area for a long time, and I have come to the conclusion that many so-called Islamic terrorist groups are really just Soviet/Chinese puppets who are trying to set off a civilizational war between genuine Jews, Christians and Muslims. They do this because they know they cannot take on the US and its allies directly, so they use proxies to get us fighting each other. The Marxist-Leninists Liberation Theologians posing as representatives of the Protestant and Catholic Church were instrumental in fomenting Communist revolution in Latin America and Africa. The same holds true for phony Muslim groups who are fomenting revolution in the Middle East, Eurasia, Indonesia, and elsewhere. Finally, I would like to suggest that those who can’t tell the difference between the forces of civilization and the forces of revolution are a distinct liability in the War on Terror.
The terrorists who attack us claim to be inspired by Islam, and they quote Islamic clerics who say that attacking us is a religious duty, and their actions are applauded by a large portion of Islamic society.
If this was all just Communist ‘corruption’ of your ideal of a pure ‘religion of Peace Islam’ it doesn't matter.
The terrorists are inspired by Islam. They say as much. You chiming in that they have been used as a proxy for Communism makes little to no difference. The Islamists used Communists as much as the Communists used the Islamists because they have SIMILAR INTERESTS and IDENTICAL ENEMIES.
And I have seen your “evidence” it is all Pape, and all about suicide bombers. You have never even dealt with my clearly stated facts, and just reflexively go back to Pape’s assertions.
Facts....
Hezbollah was founded by Islamic clerics.
Hezbollah is run by an Islamic cleric.
Hezbollah has as its goal the creation of an Islamic state.
Anybody (including Mr. Pape) who claims that someone from this organization is “secular” needs their head checked. You go on to claim that they are from “the Temple of Darwin” without any evidence that these 11th century cretins would know Darwin from Descartes.
Are you saying that Communist revolution is not conspiratorial? Are you saying that the Communists don’t start false-flag movements (such as Liberation Theology or Islamic Marixism) to facilitate their goals of World Revolution? I’m not talking about some whacked-out conspiracy theory, I’m talking about real conspiratorial organizations like the Mafia, al-Qaeda, the PLO, the Soviet Union, etc, etc, etc, etc.
Moreover the people who adulate and support Al Queda do so because it aligns with their view of Islam.
But as I said, the Islamists used the Communists as much as the Communists used the Islamists, because they have similar goals and identical enemies.
Now where do you get off saying that any terrorist is from “the Temple of Darwin”? Do you have ANY evidence that these cretins even learn about biology in their schools, let alone that their motivation and ideology is anything other than what they say it is- Islamic Jihad?
You might want to go back and re-read the various contexts in which I use the phrase “Temple of Darwin.” Sometimes I use “Temple of Darwin” to specifically refer to the anti-Christian high priests of Darwinism, such as Charles Darwin, Thomas Huxley, Richard Lewontin, Daniel Dennett, Richard Dawkins, etc, etc. However, other times I use the term to refer to materialist ideologies generally. Sometimes I use the phrase to refer to stupid evolutionary claptrap that is every bit as miraculous as special creation (but with no miracle worker). Indeed, the phrase means many things depending on the context. If you are still confused, think of Johnny Depp’s explanation of the various meanings of “forget about it” in the movie Donnie Brasco.
It all depends on the context. In the case of terrorists and suicide bombers, I claim that the vast majority are Temple of Darwin fanatics (in the sense that they are communist/socialist materialists), or the useful idiots of communist/socialist materialists.
You have no evidence and your claims are ridiculous.
We are at war with Terrorists who say they are inspired by Islam. Islamic clerics extort them to acts of violence, and much of the Islamic world applauds their murderous acts. Neither the terrorists, the Islamic clerics, or the audience for their snuff films are secular.
“You can shoot the tiger, or stay out of his way, but you cannot pronounce him a vegetarian”
Richard Mitchell
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