Best,
Chris
Posted on 07/26/2009 5:55:44 AM PDT by decimon
British historian Andrew Roberts has claimed in a new book -- The Storm of War -- that wrong clothing and not ghastly wintry conditions led to Germany's defeat in Russia in 1941.
In an extract from his new book, Roberts claims that Hitler's troops were fatally ill equipped for the 1941 invasion of Russia.
He also blames dictator Adolf Hitler for that defeat, saying the Nazi leader failed to take care of his troops' needs and was more proud of his hardiness in the cold, boasting how "having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me."
Prior to Operation Barbarossa, the Nazis were not so certain that their invasion of Russia, which began on June 22, 1941, would take place in a very cold winter.
The mistake that the German commissariat made was that they did not organize enough woollen hats, gloves, long johns and overcoats for use in Russia, reports The Telegraph.
(Excerpt) Read more at in.news.yahoo.com ...
Attacking Stalingrad instead of going after the oil fields was a biggie
Uh, is it just me or is this pretty much obvious?
Hitler should have just had summer weather that winter.
I read a very interesting book that theorized Hitler attacked Stalin because Stalin was about to attack him. The Germans did not have the luxury of choosing the date.
Best,
Chris
I can’t remember the book’s name. It was written by a former Soviet military intelligence officer (who defected). He claims that Soviet intelligence was monitoring the wool market (and wool production) in Germany for indications the German military was asking for heavy clothing.
He would have eventually beaten Britain...America would have stayed out of hitlers hair...and afterward he could have taken Soviet Russia at his leisure. No it was Hitlers massive ignorance of battle tactics that lost him the war...not clothing.
Once again, the importance of dressing for success.
The clothes make the man or winner/loser/POW/dead.
I think being ill-equipped in the dead of winter after years of war have torn apart the continent is a good example of a ghastly winter condition.
I guess!
The truth is that Hitler was out generaled. He failed to grasp the depth of the Soviet army and attacked with an inadequate force.
Cold and clothes were inconsequential to the defeat.
Kind of a chicken versus egg analysis. Hitler’s troops were unprepared for winter and lacked proper clothing or equipment. Russian winters are typically brutal. I could kind of see it both ways.
Hitler’s biggest mistake was in attacking the Jews.
Jewish people were German patriots and his brain trust. They would have fought and worked for him. Instead they were rounded up and slaughtered.
No one can blame any one thing for the loss of a war, it takes many things working as a chain. Each link in the chain adds to the loss.
I often wonder what would have happened in Europe had Japan not attacked the US. Suppose Japan instead of attacking the US had gone to meet Hitlers Armies with their seapower and transported them across the Channel?
honk
Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War II.I suspect Suvorov would make this author look like an idiot.
What ever book that was got it wrong. Not only did Germany choose the date, they caught the Russians(at least Stalin)totally by surprise. They spent months moving troops up to the Russian border. Stalin dismissed this because he believed Hitler to be a rational man, making a huge mistake by doing so.
I suggest you read the book in my comment #19. Suvorov proves that the Soviets were only caught by surprise in the sense they were deployed to attack and not defend, resulting in the rapid German advance at the onset.
Sorry Mr. Roberts, but it WAS the wintry conditions that led to the defeat. Had it NOT been for the wintry conditions the German's "wrong" clothing would have been ok. Sheesh.
Another example of logistical supply lines not being able to keep up with the forward advance of the invading army. Once beyond paved roads and rail lines that could be comandeered, the resupply from behind was badly bogged down.
When Patton made his second crossing of the Rhine, one of the things he prepared for was that the rear eschelon quartermaster supply lines were to be kept full and to keep on coming. Supply trucks (the ‘Red Ball Express’) did not make return trips when they had delivered their loads. When they ran out of fuel, they waited there for resupply from behind for refueling and reloading of more vital supplies.
Any number of Studebakers and Dodges and GMCs got used up in that forward rush. And in 1946, most of them were simply abandoned, or sold for nominal prices, to the Germans and Austrians, who used these vehicles to get commerce moving again in their war-torn countries.
Like saying that it was the lack of an oven mitt and not the hot pan that burned you.
Germany started the campaign 2 months late due to Italy’s blunder in Yugoslavia and Greece. What was left was an impossible time line.
The winters of the early 40’s were much, much colder than average.
German uniforms and other supplies did not count on a winter campaign or a protracted campaign of any kind.
Hitler refused to hold up the attack and allow his generals to choose good defensive ground.
There is no doubt clothing played a part, but it was merely a symptom, not the actual disease.
The Russians were brutal enough to afford losses of 10 to 1 and did. (I don’t know the actual numbers, however, I do know what the Russians did in battle)
There were some huge tactical mistakes made, one of which was attacking without consideration of the logistics involved.
Most of the mistakes that were made in Russia, though, can be traced directly to Hitler trying to run the Russian front.
>>>>”wrong clothing..... not winter”>
?????????
That is nonsensical!
Hitler should have waited for Global Warming before attacking.
Too bad he DELAYED the invasion by 6 weeks to help out Mussolini.
Suvorov’s “Icebreaker” is at best hard to believe. I’ve not seen any other source claiming that Uncle Joe had set up the Krauts.
After reading the book, I wondered if perhaps Suvorov had become a Stalin apologist. But even if that is not the case, if Stalin was planning to go on the offensive, why did he purge the Red Army, eliminating such luminaries as Tukchevsky, leading theorist of the Deep Attack?
bttt
Not to mention also the mass murder Hitler did in the USSR, especially on Jews in Ukraine. Many Russians and Ukrainians thought the Germans were their salvation from the Soviets. They were ready to assist.
And as to the cold, a Russian i know said they have a saying. “Its not that a Siberian can stand the cold better than anyone else, they just know how to dress correctly for it.”
Stalin was not caught by surprise. He knew that he could absorb the losses and he didn’t care if the soon to be buffer states got looted, he wanted them to be weaker after the war, that way they would be easier to control.
Suvorov addresses the purges, but I don't remember how. As for the rest of the book, his conclusions can be accepted or they can not be . . . but he does a pretty good job of challenging some prevailing assumptions.
Ref: the purges. One theory is that the SD set up the Soviet General Staff with phony evidence of them as traitors. Stalin, being the raving paranoid he was, did what was anticipated - he eliminated much of the talent the Red Army possessed at the operational level.
Extrapolating from this, there are two plausible reasons for this SD operation - attack the Red Army’s ability to defend the Motherland, or, going along with what you’re saying, attack it’s ability to conduct strategic offensive operations.
I’ll take a look for the book next R&R.
Sounds like British historian Andrew Roberts is a bit of an idiot.
If the winter was not a factor, why in the world would Roberts claim they needed "woollen hats, gloves, long johns and overcoats?"
Sheesh.
The Russians are said to have had multiple armies in reserve of which the Germans were not aware. Once the Germans were committed into the stalemate at Stalingrad and suffering, their army was enveloped and destroyed.
Interesting choice of words. During the late 1930’s heyday of the Nazi era, what we refer to as Indian summer, the glorious weather of early autumn that lingers on, was known in Germany as “Hitler Weather”.
Interesting choice of words. During the late 1930’s heyday of the Nazi era, what we refer to as Indian summer, the glorious weather of early autumn that lingers on, was known in Germany as “Hitler Weather”.
Hitler’s biggest mistake was being a murdering fascist dictator. Using meth daily was also not a great idea.
Stalin ignored the build up on the border because of that reasoning.
However, he used the age old Russian tactic of retreating until winter set in, he knew Hitler's supply lines would stretch out, he moved his factories out of range of Hitlers short range two engine bombers, he built the T34, which was better than the existing German main tank, the MarkIV, forcing Hitler to build a new tank(two in fact), he built new aircraft, among them the Sturmovich(spelling?)which were better than Germany's planes.
Although the T34 was a good tank it was not better than the soon to appear Tiger and Panther models, however Stalin did what America did to win the war, he out produced Hitler.
Hitler also made a huge mistake in killing off Russian civilians who at first thought Germany was a savior for them. Hitler made a lot of mistakes but he didn't attack Russia because Russia was planing on attacking Germany, they weren't. Hitler thought they were because that is what he would do.
I think that attacking Stalingrad was almost a military necessity. It would have been extremely dangerous to leave a military center to your rear as you advance deep into the Caucuses. OTOH, if you could take Stalingrad you could hold it with far fewer troops than it would take to cordon the area, like a seige.
I think they could have put more resources into the mission after it changed to attacking Stalingrad. But they didn’t.
Had Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa n April, 1941 as initially planned, the crucial months of fighting would have taken place when the weather would not have been the disastrously mitigating factor in Germany's defeat. The Germans were forced to fight in the worst winter in a hundred years, the cold so fierce to have caused fatal rupture of the intestines when soldiers' relieving themselves.
http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/greece.htm
Italy was at once awed and jealous of the German successes in 1940, and Mussolini declared war on Britain and France on June 10. Stagnated in France until the German victory, the Italians looked to the Southeast for something they could claim as their own prize. 200,000 Italian soldiers attacked Greece from Italian Albania on October 28, 1940. The Greek Army proved much tougher than Mussolini or his generals expected. Not only was the Italian advance smashed, the Italians were expelled from Greece and driven back to Albania . Hitler was furious; Mussolini had not bothered to inform him of the invasion. As Hitler planned to attack the Soviet Union in the Spring of 1941, the Italian advance had left his southern flank critically exposed. Now he had to postpone the Russian timetable in order to secure the Balkans. Hitler’s forces attacked Greece and Yugoslavia on April 6, 1941. The Metaxas Line, fortresses on the Greek-Bulgarian border, stopped the Germans until Yugoslavia fell on April 17. Then the Germans could move into Greece from Yugoslavia and surrounded the Greek positions. Hitler still had to shift forces preparing for the invasion of Russia to collapse the Greek Resistance. The whole Peloponnesian peninsula was overrun and Athens fell on April 27.
The thing that greatly contributed Hitler’s defeat in the Soviet Union was the unplanned move into the Balkans. The operation started in the Spring of ‘41 with the invasion of Yugoslvia, Albania, Greece, and ended witht he airborne assault of Crete. This pushed back the timetable for the invasion of the Soviet Union.
Italy’s ill-considered move into Albania precipitated the Brits reinforcing Greece from Egypt. Hitler countered by sending his mobile forces into the Balkans. If the Germans had another several more weeks of good weather in 1941, they might have taken some of their strategic objectives before really bad weather set in. Maintenance of the Objective.
Another huge problem was they left for a quick victory and the vehicles were ill prepared. They were supposed to be done before winter set in.
Also, as a result, a simple thing called anti-freeze was neglected. When fuel deliveries ran behind, a lot of vehicles were basically internally destroyed.
I would agree with that. The Germans were trying to meet 2 strategic objectives simultaneously -- seize the Caucuses region, and take Stalingrad. Clearly you couldn't do the former without the latter. Therefore, taking Stalingrad should have had the lion's share of military resources.
The Russian “armies” tended to be underequipped for battle. They had the choice of advancing or being killed by the officers behind them. Typically, the soldiers in the forefront of the advance were armed, and, when they were killed, the following soldiers armed themselves by taking weapons from their fallen comrades.
Cut off places with no logistical support can be bypassed and starved. Stalingrad was unnecessary militarily, at least the city fighting.
But thank goodness Hitler was drawn into it. All the Nazis killed there werent available to be turned against our boys later. For some real fun, look at a map of the USSR with hitlers high water mark on it. He barely made it into the county, didnt pass the Urals. It was hopeless.
I personally thing the Germans started believing their own BS and thought they simply were invincible.
Author John Barron stated that Hitler’s Abwher diagnosed Stalin as a paranoid schizophrenic in the thirties and cooked up a false document concerning a military coup, naming all the top Soviet commanders and letting fall into Stalin’s hands.
According to him this is what kicked of Stalin’s devastating purge, decapitating the Red Army.
I think I read that part.
Stalin knew that he and Hitler would have to go to war eventually, but he did not anticipate that Hitler would strike when he did.
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