Skip to comments.The Fusion Revolution
Posted on 11/14/2011 11:34:43 PM PST by Kevmo
The Fusion Revolution
When the first human animal figured out how to make fire at will, life on earth changed forever. The fictional character Sherlock Holmes once said that "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Using that logic, I have come to the conclusion that fossil fuels will soon become obsolete, and human history will again be dramatically altered. A total switchover to fusion power will take decades, but basic economics tells us that fusion reactors will win in the marketplace over their more costly competitors. Imagine a clean new world where oil and coal are only used to make chemicals, and where every nation on earth has equal access to low cost energy. Scientist Andrea Rossi's "Energy Catalyzer" (E-Cat) pressure fusion reactor promises to accomplish all of this and more.
Rossi states that he uses micrometer grain sized nickel dust enriched to contain more of two useful isotopes, N-62 and N-64. The nickel is then processed to increase the number of surface tubercles (protrusions) to provide greater area for heat producing reactions with hydrogen gas under pressure. Secret catalysts are added to break apart molecular hydrogen gas (H2) into atomic hydrogen (H1), and to make nickel more receptive to hydrogen nuclei. It has been speculated that the catalysts are iron dust (about 10% by weight) and very fine carbon powder. The iron dust might be added to break apart H2 into H1, and the carbon powder added as a "scavenger" for contaminating oxygen, and perhaps for other, less obvious purposes. Rossi states that the total cost of nickel processing plus the catalyst adds just 10% to the total cost of the fuel. Heat is applied to the pressurized nickel-hydrogen mixture to get the reaction started. The low energy nuclear reactions (LENR) that result drives the nuclei of hydrogen atoms into the heart of nickel, turning small amounts of nickel isotopes N-62 and N-64 into the copper isotopes CU-63 and CU-65. Every 6 months the fuel load is refreshed and the old metallic fuel is sold as valuable scrap metal.
According to Rossi, in the latest E-Cat design the ordinary resistive style heating elements are quickly turned off as the reactor becomes self-sustaining, then switched on again for ten minutes every half hour to keep the units operating in a stable, safely productive zone of pressure and heat. If Rossi uses higher pressures to output greater heat and produce continuous, totally self-sustaining operation, E-Cat output can become unstable, releasing too much energy too quickly, resulting in explosion. Rossi states that he has purposely exploded dozens of E-Cats during stress tests in order to determine the exact limits of safe operation. Rossi therefore operates his first generation E-Cats in a powered down mode, finely balancing pressure and heat. Future E-Cat designs, perhaps incorporating new construction materials, different reactor shapes, and more refined microprocessor controls should result in improved performance over time. The first internal combustion engine looks like a joke compared to today's designs, and Rossi's first generation E-Cats may look very primitive compared to what will be available in the world marketplace in the year 2021.
Rossi claims that nickel-hydrogen fusion can give the world electricity at a cost of just one cent per kilowatt hour when produced by large scale LENR (low energy nuclear reaction) power plants. Even if we skeptically triple that cost to 3 cents per kilowatt hour, it is still an incredible bargain. We currently pay at least 40 cents per kilowatt hour for intermittent electricity produced by solar panels, 15 cents per kilowatt hour for unpredictable wind power electricity, and 8 cents per kilowatt hour for electricity produce by natural gas fired power plants. Rossi states that just one pound of nickel can unleash as much energy as burning 517,000 pounds of oil, which is approximately 1,590 barrels worth. Fortunately, the earth has enough easily mineable nickel to supply all of our energy needs for millions of years.
In 2007 Rossi asked Professor Sergio Focardi to help him test his E-Cat prototype and verify that it did not emit dangerous radiation. Conventional "hot" nuclear fusion using lasers to super-heat deuterium and tritium creates so much radiation that it would be impossible to shield in a small, portable device like the E-Cat. Through extensive testing the two scientists found no dangerous levels of radiation escaping from the E-Cats lead lined fusion chamber. No radioactive materials are used in the reactor's construction, and the temporary internal gamma ray radiation produced by pressure fusion stops when the reactor is turned off, leaving behind no residual radioactive elements and zero toxic waste. After four years of studying the E-Cat, Professor Sergio Focardi gleefully declared that "This is the greatest discovery in human history," and went on to say that "The results will be immense: clean energy at (almost) zero cost."
The men behind the most important invention of the 21st century
Left Picture - Rossi on left and Focardi on right
Middle Picture - Stremmenos and Rossi working together, Focardi by fan
Right Picture - Stremmenos on left, Rossi in middle, and very interested Chinese official, Hauard Chen, on right
Andrea Rossi - Master of Science and Engineering from the Università Degli Studi Di Milan. His degree is also known as "Philosophy of Science and Engineering." It is a broad science and engineering degree, not a degree in classical philosophy. Andrea Rossi has been an accomplished engineer since age 22, starting and owning several energy related businesses.
Sergio Focardi - Professor Emeritus of Experimental Physics at the Università di Bologna and author of numerous books and scientific articles. Focardi has a history of researching nickel-hydrogen fusion even before teaming up with Andrea Rossi.
Christos Stremmenos - Former physics professor at the Università di Bologna and former Greek ambassador to Italy. Stremmenos has many social ties to the current Greek Government because of his history of valiant political opposition to the military dictatorship in Greece during the 1960s. Stremmenos researched nickel-hydrogen fusion before meeting Andrea Rossi.
Sometime in the year 2010, Andrea Rossi contacted Dr. Joseph Levi, a physics professor at the University of Bologna associated with the Italian National Institute of Nuclear Physics (INFN). After conducting preliminary tests in private, Levi set up an historic public demonstration on January 14, 2011, attended by 50 scientists from the University of Bologna and the INFN. The E-Cat produced 12.4 kilowatts of heat with an input of just 0.4 kilowatts, a gain of 31 times input power. In a third test conducted by Levi in which the E-Cat was setup to produce large amounts of hot water rather than steam, the E-Cat produced a minimum of 15 kilowatts of heat continuously for over 18 hours, and outputted peaks of heat up to 130 kilowatts. This experiment showed that a potential measuring error caused by the production of incompletely vaporized water, known as "wet steam", was not a factor in determining the E-Cat's energy output. Dr. Levi stated that "Now that I have seen the device work for so many hours, in my view all chemical energy sources are excluded.
On March 29th, 2011, two Swedish scientists participated in a test of Rossi's new mini E-Cat, which produced over 4.4 kilowatts of heat from a volume of only 50 cubic centimeters (3.05 cubic inches), just one twentieth the size of the original one liter E-Cat prototype. Hanno Essén is an associate professor of theoretical physics at the Swedish Royal Institute of Technology, and ironically a former chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Society. Essén stated that "In some way a new kind of physics is taking place. Its enigmatic, but probably no new laws of nature are involved. We believe it is possible to explain the process with known laws of nature. He went on to say that "We checked everything that could be checked, and we could walk around freely and have a look at most of the equipment."
Sven Kullander, a Professor at Uppsala University and chairman of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences Energy Committee, also participated in the test. Kullander stated that "My belief that there is an energy development far beyond what one would expect has been strengthened significantly as I have had the opportunity to see the process for myself and perform measurements." Their group report stated that "Any chemical process for producing 25 kWh from any fuel in a 50 cm3 container can be ruled out. The only alternative explanation is that there is some kind of a nuclear process that gives rise to the measured energy production."
Sherlock Holmes would ask what are the odds that Rossi, Focardi, Levi, Essén, Kullander, Christos Stremmenos, and a dozen other top scientists could all go insane at the same time, deciding to throw away their reputations, careers, and scientific legacies by endorsing a fraudulent energy scheme. How could a public test closely observed by 50 scientists be faked? The E-Cat produced so much energy that if the power had come from the wall socket, the power cord would have melted. No tiny hidden battery could have possibly unleashed so much energy, and the small amount of hydrogen gas consumed during the reactor test was independently measured at less than 1 gram, thus simple combustion is ruled out as an energy source. Overall hydrogen consumption for the E-Cat is estimated at 0.01 grams of hydrogen to produce 10 kilowatt hours of heat. The only reasonable explanation for the excess energy produced is some form of low energy nuclear reaction (LENR). Thus, no matter how improbable it is that Rossi and others have discovered a new field of physics, it must be true according to the practical logic of Sherlock Holmes.
Unlike the notoriously flawed "cold fusion" experiments using deuterium and palladium conducted by Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann in 1989, Rossis invention is decidedly "hot" in that the reactor yields generous amounts of reliable heat. The reaction is so powerful that even a first year engineering student could easily measure the E-Cats healthy net energy gain. We therefore know with certainty that the E-Cats energy is real and not an illusion created by measuring error, a possibility that haunted the work of Pons and Fleischmann. Rossis initial scientific paper on the E-Cat was rejected by established journals because even Rossi himself could not come up with a sufficiently detailed explanation of how the E-Cat works. Building an E-Cat is easier than explaining what happens inside the E-Cats reactor core. Andrea Rossi's explanation below is from a recent EV World interview and has been edited for clarity.
"To make it simple, what happens is that nickel has a particularity that protons spread from it's surface with extreme efficiency very close to the nucleus, even if repelled by the so called coulomb barrier forces. When we inject protons of hydrogen at high pressures and temperatures, they go pretty close to the nucleus of the nickel. At those points we have nuclear effects that produce gamma rays which add more energy. We increase the pressure leading to extremely high pressures... similar to ones that happen inside White Dwarf stars. In that situation the so called Gamow Factor, which is a probabilistic calculation of the coulomb repelling forces, is overcome. At that point enough energy is produced to make it worth being recorded." - Andrea Rossi
Professor Christos Stremmenos has submitted his own ideas on how the E-Cat functions here. Purdue University Professor Yeong E. Kim's paper suggesting that Bose-Einstein theory may explain E-Cat phenomena can be found here. Remember that scientists and engineers do not invent the laws of nature and can only attempt to explain the functions of nature within the limitations of our mortal human abilities. Andrea Rossi himself has paid the University of Bologna to test the E-Cat and come up with their own theories on how it works in a year long study program to begin in November of 2011.
Much experimentation will be needed before the full potential of E-Cat technology is realized, and as always the original inventors work will be greatly improved upon by other scientists from around the world. As pressure fusion is a completely new, inherently nontoxic technology, there are no regulatory barriers to slow its rapid technological advance. The growth of E-Cat use may thus be as exponential in progression as the use of personal computers in the 1990s. E-Cats may end up being sold by large chain stores and familiar online retailers. No precious metals are used in the low cost, easy to manufacture E-Cats, and any company with the technological skills required to build an air conditioner can produce them in large numbers on assembly lines. That means even poor, relatively undeveloped countries will be able to manufacture them.
Finding safe ways to scale up E-Cat technology to the giant gigawatt size needed to replace major fossil fuel and fission nuclear power plants will take a few years of research by big corporations. If E-Cats turn out to be as economical as expected, they will eventually be used to power cars, trucks, trains, ships, aircraft, and spacecraft. Imagine a luxury sedan you could drive for thousands of miles without refueling, or a small aircraft you could fly from New York to Beijing nonstop at low cost.
The American based company, Ampenergo, will handle E-Cat sales and technology licensing contracts in the Western Hemisphere. A European based E-Cat licensing and manufacturing deal with the Greek company, Defkalion Green Technologies, has come into question after a dramatic argument with Rossi. Rossi accused Defkalion of not living up to their financial agreement with his own company, Leonardo Corporation, by not coming through with an expected lump sum payment. A conciliatory Defkalion claims that both Rossi and Defkalion are under great pressure from banks and major corporations interested in preserving our reliance on fossil fuels. See Defkalion's dramatic statement, as if lifted from a best selling novel, or even from the Keanu Reeves movie, Chain Reaction. Rossi states that "The issue (with Defkalion) is just financial, not personal, nor technological, nor scientific." Rossi has recently sold his own home in order to raise funds to finish his one megawatt E-Cat reactor, so all of his own personal chips are now on the table.
Defkalion states they are surging ahead with plans to mass produce their own unique version of E-Cats, which they call Hyperion Modules. [NEWS: See November 14th, 2011, Defkalion press release with pictures of their latest Hyperion Modules and lab equipment] Internet rumors suggest that Defkalion's fusion reactors perform even better than Rossi built E-Cats, and that Defkalion figured out their own "secret catalyst" without Rossi's help. I predict we will not know all of the real facts until a major motion picture is made of the birth of E-Cat technology, something along the lines of the 2010 movie, The Social Network, about the birth of Facebook. May I suggest to Hollywood movie moguls the working title, The New Fire. Dramatic tension continues to build, and the stakes could not be higher. With the world economy in shambles, E-Cat technology represents the only magic bullet solution that can lead us out of global financial and ecological calamity. What will happen next?
Rossi's recent October 6th public test in Bologna, Italy, of a single E-Cat reactor cell in "self-sustaining mode" produced energy for almost four hours with inconsequential energy input, which was carefully measured and subtracted from the energy output measurements. If the E-Cat was not producing heat from low energy nuclear reactions (LENR), then the constant flow of water would have cooled the E-Cat down to room temperature. Instead, the E-Cat maintained stable heat production and continued to boil water. As the E-Cat did not lose any weight during the test, chemical reactions can be ruled out as a source of the heat. Defkalion's public reaction (and here) to the October 6th test has added more drama and soap opera interest to this breaking news story.
An unnamed corporate or military customer (possibly DARPA or SPAWAR) tested Rossi's one megawatt (heat) E-Cat power plant on October 28th, 2011. The test was conducted by Domenico Fioravanti, who reportedly is a NATO colonel and engineer with 30 years of experience in thermodynamics. The reactor was run in half power self-sustain mode for over 5.5 hours. That means there was no energy input during 5.5 hours of continuous operation. "According to the customers controller, Domenico Fioravanti, the plant released 2,635 kWh during five and a half hours of self sustained mode, which is equivalent to an average power of 479 kilowatts."
Rossi states that the first E-Cat reactors he sells will be for heating and cooling, including a low cost home heating model, a 40 centimeter (15.75") cube weighing 60 kilograms (132 pounds). You can keep up with fast moving E-Cat events through e-catworld.com/ The Swedish engineering journal, NyTeknik, helped with the October 6th testing and has a news story published here, and a technical report here. Below is NyTeknik's graph of the October 6th E-Cat test with notations by Andrea Rossi.
If E-Cat technology works as promised, and as every public and private test to date indicates, then humans will gradually replace all fossil fuels with energy from nickel-hydrogen fusion. There will be no risk of radioactive pollution because E-Cats contain no radioactive or fissile materials. Fusion power will put an end to biofuels and all the environmental damage and food price hyperinflation they create. E-Cats will raise our standard of living by lowering the cost of food, shelter, clothing, consumer goods, transportation everything.
Andrea Rossi has potential competition in the design of very large scale nuclear fusion power plants. Tri Alpha Energy uses boron and hydrogen as nuclear fuel, which breaks up into three helium-4 nuclei and three alpha particles, a process that produces little or no radioactive waste. Rossi's reactor must heat liquids to push turbines to make electricity. Tri Alpha's reactor can theoretically create electricity directly with no turbine required, increasing efficiency while reducing size and construction costs. Tri Alpha's concept is so appealing that famed Microsoft co-founder, Paul Allen, has invested millions of dollars into the highly secretive Rancho Santa Margarita based company.
If nuclear fusion does not work as hope, then the next obvious alternative is the Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor (LFTR), which is the safest, cleanest, and most efficient fission reactor design available. After the serious nuclear accidents in Japan, however, any development of LFTR technology or other new fission reactor design will be painfully slow, perhaps too slow to avoid further dramatic collapse of the world economies which rely so heavily on affordable energy. Let us all hope that nickel-hydrogen fusion does work as claimed, because billions of human lives will be saved by a major reduction in energy costs.
Christopher Calder email = archive100 AT inbox DOT com
Rossi's paper - "A new energy source from nuclear fusion"
Interview with Andrea Rossi
Andrea Rossi's website - "Journal of Nuclear Physics"
Rossi's patent application
main website, with overview of all major energy sources - The Renewable Energy Disaster
Feel free to post your proof that Miami-Dade have granted PD Rossi a variance to build fusion reactors in his fifth-floor walkup. Until then, I’m just going to go with the simplest explanation: the whole thing is a scam.
I know. I just think it is hilarious that all these gullible marks believe this guy has a fusion nuclear reaction going on but there have been no government licensing or regulatory actions by either Rossi or any government.
Neither scientific nor technical......ignore.
He’s done that with more than one company. He’s used the legitimate names of at least two companies that could be considered in the area of Rossi’s work. I can’t find them but I will run across them and be sure to publish that part of his scam.
One other thing I’ve noticed, Freepers who I thought were decent people turn out to be the biggest d*ickheads on the board. So far, I’ve got five on my list. I don’t know why this topic brings it out of them.
I like how his fake degree from Kensington doesn’t seem to bother folks. If I was hiring an engineer and he had credentials, I would assume that he has taken the required classes, knows his field and is ready to work. Now, suppose Rossi came in with his bogus claim but no one noticed, he might be able to pull it off but sooner or later (probably sooner) someone is going to notice and a call will go out to Kensington?? to see what kind of student he was (this is assuming this is his first job out of college).
So, not only did he end up screwing the company that hired him but he also screwed the more qualified applicant. I like how folks just hand waive that part away.
Maybe he really is a brilliant genius, I’ve yet to see that part in his tests but hey, what do I know?
Where was the factory in Ferrari? Ferrara? that he used an ECAT to heat for a year? Where’s that ECAT? Why can’t it be examined. Another thing, at the beginning of the year, his ECATS were tiny L shaped devices; these are what heated his factory? Now they’re large boxes and he gives the impression that this is the version he used to heat his factory.
I agree but my reason has nothing to do with zoning laws.
I would like to see his Nuclear Reactor Permits.... Even windmills require permits anymore.
There is a mental condition that marks are affected by....when people tell them they are being scammed, they feel insulted and push back.
Deep in their hearts and heads, they know you are right, but they will deny it even after Rossi is locked up in Prison.
There will be stories told for the next 30 years that the military industrial complex or the some other big company shut him down.
All bs.....so sad.
20 years ago, somebody set up a table top device that created a little extra heat. Today, lots of people set up table top devices that make a little extra heat. Not much of a revolution, if you ask me.
***It’s more than a “little extra heat” but I can accept that it’s chemical in nature. No need for NRC oversight.
Rossi could prove the skeptics wrong at any time.
***True. He chose not to. Levi was a skeptic who has become a proponent of Rossi. No doubt whoever the customers are, they are skeptic until they put cash on the barrel head.
As opposed to you, who has posted every silly little blog entry that supports Rossi?
***There are tons of blog entries that I have decided not to post. There’s an entire feud between Rossi and Krivit that seems to have escaped the notice of most freeper LENR seagulls because most of it wasn’t posted.
Since hearing about Rossi and his E-Cat, I’ve been researching known “energy” frauds.
***I was posting LENR threads before Rossi & his E-cat came along. Maybe you should investigate LENR.
***Its more than a little extra heat but I can accept that its chemical in nature. No need for NRC oversight.Are you calling Rossi a liar? Rossi claims that his E-Cat converts Nickel into Copper. No chemical process can do that.
In fact, the Nickel "fuel" and the Nickel/Copper/Iron "ash" is the only physical evidence that Rossi has presented regarding how the E-Cat supposedly works.
I have, more than once, presented a fairly detailed post explaining how those samples actually contradict Rossi's claim. Nobody has posted a serious rebuttal to it. I guess the Rossi fanboys don't want a serious discussion.
Since hearing about Rossi and his E-Cat, Ive been researching known energy frauds.There is much more solid evidence of fraud than of LENR.
***I was posting LENR threads before Rossi & his E-cat came along. Maybe you should investigate LENR.
You have, in the past, proudly posted that you would not read any of the fraud links I've been providing. Maybe you should take your own advice and investigate that.
BTW, are you getting a good feeling that Rossi's new European Partner is a pretty obvious fraud itself? They are trying to sell a perpetual motion machine. There's no evidence that they've actually sold one (let alone proven that it works), but I'm sure they've been able to find investors to keep them in the money for several years now. Just what Rossi is hoping for.
I know! The fake degree is the BIGGEST red flag ever! There is absolutely, positively, no legitimate, honest, good reason for anyone EVER to purchase a fake degree. This fact alone should thoroughly discredit Rossi!
Who is the new European partner? I *love* perpetual motion machines—they’re hilarious! Maybe Rossi and his partner can enter a cross-selling agreement?
Unfortunately, Rossi claims his process to be nuclear, and even claims to be using nuclear enrichment on his fuel.
Who is the new European partner?
HERE is the original post. Rossi has confirmed this business relationship on his professional journal blog.
HERE is the link to the inventor of the perpetual motion machine the company is currently "selling".
And HERE is a link to the company's web page, including an English translation of the "Products" page.
"It was reported that two Swedish scientists who participated in the October 6 testing of Energy Catalyzer, Professor Hanno Essén and Professor Sven Kullander have also tested the byproducts of the E-Cat. They report elemental and isotopic analysis was performed on the samples utilizing both X-ray Fluorescence and Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry. The result was that the fresh nickel powder was almost totally pure nickel, but the nickel powder that had been in an E-Cat contained 10% copper and 11% iron. Two of the copper isotopes detected were Cu63 and Cu65. Obviously, the above results are proof of a fusion reaction taking place in the E-Cat reactor! Now those tests need to be confirmed by others."
Maybe you oughta post that analysis again, because the above info seems to contradict it. Note that Rossi sent a BLANK SAMPLE along with the "used" material.
So, apparently, the DATA from the TWO samples shows that the E-Cat converts Ni to Cu and perhaps Fe. Now, maybe the isotopic analysis of the Cu and Fe don't differ from "natural abundance". but given that we have no clue as to the actual mechanism of the transformations, one CANNOT draw the conclusion from the isotope ratios that "it's a scam", when the elemental analysis plainly shows formation of Cu and Fe.
Well, one "can" draw that conclusion if one is a pathological skeptic. The correct approach is to reserve judgment and await clarifying data.
I note in passing that the info in bold comes directly from the people who did the analysis, and not a verbal quotation from someone else who "talked to them".
The result was that the fresh nickel powder was almost totally pure nickel, but the nickel powder that had been in an E-Cat contained 10% copper and 11% iron. Two of the copper isotopes detected were Cu63 and Cu65.I'm sorry, I thought you understood this stuff.
63Cu and 65Cu are both naturally-occurring isotopes of Copper. Their presence doesn't prove, or even suggest, that there was any type of nuclear process involved. This is entirely consistent with Rossi mixing some Nickel powder with some Copper powder and some Iron powder, using nothing more sophisticated than a kitchen scale.
Your quote (it would have been appropriate to include a link) doesn't mention anything about the isotope ratio of the elements. The article I posted (to which I did include a link) stated that the isotope ratio of both the Nickel and Copper were identical to those found in nature.
Come back when you understand the difference between an element and an isotope, and when you can explain how Rossi can claim to be "enhancing" the Nickel isotope ratios, and claim to be "transmuting" Nickel into Copper, without making any changes to the natural isotope ratio.
There isn’t any proof there is a actual customer.... if there is one, no doubt it is one that isn’t sophisticated enough to detect the fraud and able to evaluate this thing without being led around by the nose by Rossi..
Thanks! AWESOME! :)
Maybe WW and Kevmo would like to start some perpetual motion generator threads?
Maybe because Krivit is a confidence man? -— you don’t think con men don’t create their own skeptics to convince?
It really helps in selling the con.
The sample he sent was found to be the wrong isotope of copper for a nuclear by product. It is common copper that comes from a copper mine and is smelted.
The result that I got not off a Rossi site said it was the wrong Isotope.
I don’t trust the Rossi News Service, sorry.
So, apparently, the DATA from the TWO samples shows that the E-Cat converts Ni to Cu and perhaps Fe.No, the data shows that one sample is pure "ordinary" (as found in nature), Nickel, and the other sample is "ordinary" (as found in nature) Nickel and "ordinary" (as found in nature) "Copper" and "ordinary" (as found in nature) Iron. There is nothing in the analysis that gives the slightest clue regarding the relationship between the two samples. That's based entirely on Rossi's unsubstantiated claims.
If you believe Rossi's unsubstantiated claim that his E-Cat transmuted on into the other, then you could conclude that the change was due to some unknown, unexplainable nuclear process.
If you don't believe Rossi, then all you need is a few vials of "ordinary" (as found in nature) metal powders and a kitchen scale to produce the second sample.
Since you seem to be uneducated on this subject, here's a brief explanation of why such a reaction would be unexplainable:
The original article states that Rossi used 62Ni and 64Ni in the reactions. The trouble is, 62Ni only makes up 3.6% of natural Nickel, and 64Ni is less than 1%. So, even if those isotopes were completely turned into Copper and Iron, there isn't enough of those isotopes to produce anything like either 10% Copper or 11% Iron, let alone both.
And even if they could, then there would be 0% of those isotopes in the "ash" sample, which is not the case, according to the article I referenced.
There is a paper from Rossis
Journal blog (referenced above) that claims that Rossi's E-Cat is converting 58Ni into Copper and Iron. This, at least, is plausible, since there is enough 58Ni (68%) to produce the resulting Copper and Iron. But even here, there is the problem of ratios. If you convert 20% of the 58Ni into something else, it will no longer be 58Ni, and the isotope ratios will be way out of whack, which the analysis shows is not true.
And, even if you get past all of that, you still have to come up with some magic transformations that allow the original Nickel isotopes to convert into different isotopes of Copper and Iron so that they just happen to keep the exact ratios as in nature. You would need something like "x% of 58Ni turns into 63Cu, while y% turns into 65Cu and z% turns into each of the four stable (and none of the unstable) isotopes of Iron, in exactly the right ratios to make it appear that nothing at all has happened to the sample.
This is nothing less than preposterous. The fact that Miley (referenced above) does show 39 different isotope ratio changes makes Rossi's claims even more ridiculous. If Rossi could show any non-natural isotope ratios, it would at least suggest some sort of nuclear process. But that would be expensive and difficult, so Rossi just ignored it, told the world that he had an analysis done (without releasing the actual report, and without proving that his sample was genuine). As usual with Rossi, he isn't allowing enough information to come out to clearly answer the questions.
Since Rossi is trying to use this "secret" analysis to bolster his claims, perhaps he should release it. The most reasonable theory is he won't release it because it will show that he's a fraud. It can't be that he's trying to protect his intellectual property, since he is now (supposedly) selling E-Cats to anyone who wants one. If he ever actually delivers one, the owner will certainly do the experiment themselves anyway.
Were Bernie Maddof's 'clients' acting like this? That is until they found out their moolah was gone.
Does anyone remember the 'Dale' car that was supposed to get 70MPG? She? (the owner) actually named her company, "Twentieth Century Motors" from Atlas Shrugged.
There's even a WIKI entry which, for some reason, leaves out the part that the woman that owned the company was a guy in drag.
The moral, people always find a way to scam based on world problems. The Dale's scam was when the fuel crisis hit, now, were supposedly running out of oil and another scammer steps forth to be heard.
Yep, that’s pretty much it.
I do "understand this stuff". I was making and measuring radioisotopes (probably) before you were out of diapers.
"63Cu and 65Cu are both naturally-occurring isotopes of Copper. Their presence doesn't prove, or even suggest, that there was any type of nuclear process involved. This is entirely consistent with Rossi mixing some Nickel powder with some Copper powder and some Iron powder, using nothing more sophisticated than a kitchen scale."
Yes, they "are" naturally occurring. But if they appear in a sample that was originally pure nickel, they "do" provide evidence of a nuclear process. As do the ELEMENTAL ANALYSES done by Miley.
Kullander thinks they provide such proof:
"Two of the copper isotopes detected were Cu63 and Cu65. Kullander has stated this is proof of nuclear reactions taking place in the reactor.
"Your quote (it would have been appropriate to include a link) doesn't mention anything about the isotope ratio of the elements. The article I posted (to which I did include a link) stated that the isotope ratio of both the Nickel and Copper were identical to those found in nature."
Sorry, but I was in a rush this AM to get to work. The reply (and link) you provided merely made the statement that statement that the ratio was "identical to that found in nature". No data, no composition numbers, nothing other than the statement. And made by someone other than those that did the work.
Neither your information or my information is sufficient to make an informed judgment. What needs to be found (if available) is the actual report that Essen/Kullander generated. Or at least something that provides more detail.
"Come back when you understand the difference between an element and an isotope, and when you can explain how Rossi can claim to be "enhancing" the Nickel isotope ratios, and claim to be "transmuting" Nickel into Copper, without making any changes to the natural isotope ratio.
I've understood the difference between element and isotope since grade school. And I have no idea how Rossi might be enriching the nickel, or even that he "is" enriching it. I think some of what Rossi says is deliberate misdirection. You think due to a scam.....I think to throw any competitors off on wild-goose chases.
I need to start compiling a list when I notice yet another of Rossi's (or his associates) use a legitimate business's name that is in the energy field. He's done it a couple of times. From now on I'm going to start counting.
I'd sure like him working with H2 in the apartment above mine, that seems safe. And fusion, no problem, didn't you see how safe it was in, Back to the Future?
I don't know if I've read the latest version of how Rossi's
scam ECAT works but I think we're on major rev 10 minor rev 3. But, if this thing is Fussion, I would love to hear the bureaucrats at the NRC reviewing his app.
Since Rossi has trouble keeping track of the B.S. he keeps spewing I'd love to be there for the hearing. Did I say it was Nuclear I meant chemical, it's as safe as say having cyanide in your fridge, no wait, I meant it's as safe as mixing ammonia and Comet cleanser, no wait, have you met my wife, Morgan Fairchild?
Let me explain this in simple words, and maybe you will get it. The flowmeter isn't shown in the formal "list of equipment"....but it is referred to multiple times in different places in descriptions of the demo. Therefore, the flowmeter was there, and used, despite the fact that it isn't "listed in the report's canonical list of measuring devices". Exactly why it got left out of the list, I neither know nor care. Other evidence proves its presence and use.
One of the participants makes the statement that when they left for the night, they focussed a video camera on the flowmeter to automatically take data in their absence. I thought that was a cute "trick" to turn a totalizing flowmeter into a real-time measuring device.
“Yes, they “are” naturally occurring. But if they appear in a sample that was originally pure nickel, they “do” provide evidence of a nuclear process. As do the ELEMENTAL ANALYSES done by Miley.”
Yes, they "are" naturally occurring. But if they appear in a sample that was originally pure nickel, they "do" provide evidence of a nuclear process. As do the ELEMENTAL ANALYSES done by Miley.The analysis could not support any conclusion about where the samples came from. It was reported that Rossi supplied them (maybe in a brown paper bag, for all we know).
If Rossi put pure Nickel into the E-Cat, ran it for two months, and the sample came out with Copper and Iron, then it's evidence of fusion.
However, there is no evidence of this happening (other than Rossi's unsubstantiated claim). It is just as plausible that Rossi simply added some Copper and Iron to the Nickel. There is no way for any analysis to exclude that, although the claim that the sample contained only natural ratios of Ni and Cu does support the possibility that the sample was simply a mixture of elements from a chemistry set.
Now, if the sample did contain non-natural ratios of any of the elements (as it must if fusion is actually occurring), then there would be evidence of fusion going on. It would be much more difficult and expensive for Rossi to fake that.
Notice that no one is accusing Miley of faking his results. In part, that's because Miley's analysis does show changes in the isotope ratios, which I understand has been the hallmark of every seemingly successful LENR test.
Neither your information or my information is sufficient to make an informed judgment. What needs to be found (if available) is the actual report that Essen/Kullander generated. Or at least something that provides more detail.The article I referenced (LINK) is NyTeknik, which I believe is an acceptable source for Rossi fans, and it directly quotes Sven Kullander, who I believe is also an acceptable source for Rossi fans.
As usual with Rossi, he won't release the actual data, so this is all we have to work with.
I think some of what Rossi says is deliberate misdirection.So we agree that Rossi is lying about the E-Cat. Explain to me again how we should be believing everything he says (such as the "ash" sample he supplied really was transmuted in his E-Cat), while at the same time accepting that he is lying about it?
By the way, does it cause you the slightest concern that Rossi's new European partner is also selling a perpetual motion machine? I think that would shake my confidence a bit.
http://pesn.com/2011/04/07/9501805_Rossi_Cold_Fusion_Validated_by_Swedish_Skeptics_Society/Do you have any idea how many scams have been presented as the "real thing" on pesn.com?!? That site is a sewer of every crooked and incompetent fool who thinks he has discovered perpetual motion and thinks he can get some bigger fool to give him millions to buy the secret!
In case you missed it, here is a like to a story by Rossi partner and pesn.com's own Sterling D. Allan where he breathlessly extols the wonders of Tilly's self-powering car:
Why in the world would anyone take this man or his web site seriously? The fact that Rossi has teamed up with Allan, as well as the European company mentioned in another thread that is also "selling" a perpetual motion electric generator, is the most damning evidence yet that he is nothing but a con man.
It’s not a cute trick, it’s retarded and half-assed, just like everything else in the test. By the way, if there was a flowmeter used to take accurate volume measurements, the data sure wasn’t in the report I read.
I found the New Energy Times site about a year ago, and I’ve been lurking on these threads..
There was always something that bothered me, and I just figured it out. Rossi claims that his device converts Ni to Cu and Fe...
All the theories for Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR) claim neutron formation and immediate capture by the metal atoms at the surface of the metal. During a reaction, many neutrons get captured, making heavier and heavier isotopes of the base material. Beta decay of the unstable isotopes increase the atomic weight.
For Ni-58 -> Cu-63 takes 5 neutrons, and one beta decay.
There is no path from Ni-58 to any stable Fe isotopes.
Rossi is a fraud.
I think there is LENR is real, and it really easy to prove with an isotope analysis of the starting material and the ending material. You will observe several new elements, and an increase of heavier isotopes and depletion of lighter isotopes
Great observation! I agree with you on LENR, too.
I’ve asked Wonder Warthog why, if he thinks it’s ok for Rossi to buy a fake engineering degree, why he himself didn’t buy one instead of attending LSU. Needless to say, WW refused to answer the question.
No chemical process can do that.
In fact, the Nickel “fuel” and the Nickel/Copper/Iron “ash” is the only physical evidence that Rossi has presented regarding how the E-Cat supposedly works.
***You seem to think that Rossi is interested in presenting physical evidence.
I have, more than once, presented a fairly detailed post explaining how those samples actually contradict Rossi’s claim. Nobody has posted a serious rebuttal to it. I guess the Rossi fanboys don’t want a serious discussion.
***As I’ve suggested in the past, it should be posted as its own thread. It gets lost in the weeds when it’s just one of the comments in a thread. If you’ve posted it more than once and there’s been no rebuttal, it has been lost to the noise.
There is much more solid evidence of fraud than of LENR.
***Then let’s start with the 14,700 times that LENR has been replicated.
You have, in the past, proudly posted that you would not read any of the fraud links I’ve been providing.
***”Proudly” isn’t how I would characterize it. Like I said, I was interested in LENR before Rossi came around. Your interest seems to be scams. Go ahead and prove it’s a scam. But you can’t.
Maybe you should take your own advice and investigate that.
***Why should I? I keep running into a ton of classic fallacies from your seagull brigade. If they demonstrated some solid reasoning, I might be interested.
Rossi claims his process to be nuclear, and even claims to be using nuclear enrichment on his fuel.
***Rossi claims his process is exothermic. I haven’t heard the claim of nuclear enrichment. Sounds interesting.
There isnt any proof there is a actual customer....
***There isn’t any proof there wasn’t. The best evidence approach suggests that there was a customer.
you dont think con men dont create their own skeptics to convince? It really helps in selling the con.
***Sure it does, in the movies, which is where you get your argument from. In the real world, Occham’s Razor prevails, and adding con men to the equation just increases the chance that the con will be blown.
So there! and your adopted momma wears combat boots! Too funny, I feel like I'm an elementary school, my highest level of learning achieved.
So, you need a heart transplant, right before they put you out, you find out your Doctor's degree is fraudulent, do you continue on?
On these elements being tested, are we sure the nickel he submitted is what he puts in his device? Are we sure the second elements are from a reactor that was running or even near one of his reactors.
Don't tell me he had two boxes, one marked before and the other marked after that he had assayed?
And, if he did, people bought this? Please tell me there is a clear chain of evidence here.
So far, none of the Rossi fanboys have any response to the factory he said he had in Ferrara that he used his old design Ecat to heat this factory for a year, where's that Ecat??? Since Ecats shown early this year are the L shaped ones like in his patent, why isn't he showing it off; if a tiny piece of equipment can heat his factory, imagine what the new and improved Ecat can do? What did this factory produce anyway, that is before it burned down? This seems to happen to him a lot. Didn't his factory in the states that was supposed to be producing super efficient TE devices burn?
The Ferrara Factory burned down.
Is it just me or do we have to pretty much depend on the honesty and integrity of Rossi (and his goombahs)as the sole sources of information?
At least Rossi has a new more trustworthy spokesman than Sterling Allan:
From: DOD Fuel Cell.
...Leonardo Technologies, Inc. LTI was incorporated as a response to the thermoelectric power generation research by Dr. Andre Rossi. Dr. Rossi indicated that his devices would produce 20 percent efficiencies, a vast increase from the current science of 4 percent conversion of waste heat to electrical power. Dr. Rossi believed that he could increase the physical size of the TE Devices and maintain superior power generation. In furtherance of his research, in early 2000, LTI, Rossi's company, not the military had tests conducted at the University of New Hampshire (UNH), Durham, NH, using a small scale LTI TE Device. Over a period of 7 days, the UNH power plant staff recorded voltage and amperage readings every 1/2 hr. The TE Device produced approximately 100 volts and 1 ampere of current, providing 100 watts of power. After this initial 6 ERDC/CERL TR-04-20 success, and a fire that destroyed his Manchester, NH location, Dr. Rossi returned to Italy to continue the manufacture of the TE Devices. In Italy, Dr. Rossi believed that LTI could manufacture more cost-effective TE generating devices with lower labor and assembly costs. Accordingly, Dr. Rossi engaged a subcontractor to fulfill the requirements of manufacturing and assembly.
The New Hampshire Factory Burned down
This is an excerpt from above:
LTI had tests conducted at the University of New Hampshire (UNH), Durham, NH, using a small scale LTI TE Device. Over a period of 7 days, the UNH power plant staff recorded voltage and amperage readings every 1/2 hr. The TE Device produced approximately 100 volts and 1 ampere of current, providing 100 watts of power.
In a, "Where Are They Now Vein", what happened to the 20% efficient TE devices Rossi created? Has he been able to make another?
Let's use Occams's Bic, what is more likely, Rossi created a TE that is 20% efficient compared to the normal 4% efficient ones.
Rossi gamed the test results in the college lab; keep in mind, LTI, Rossi's company was the one paying and supervising the tests, when the gov wanted to test them on their own equipment with their own scientists, a fire breaks out in Rossi's factory, (can you imagine what his fire insurance costs?).
1) either his devices worked which would be pretty impressive or
2) He somehow fudged the numbers and when interest got high and he realized he couldn't control the testing, poof, factory goes up in smoke. Now, normally, I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt BUT, are we supposed to believe:
1) The only working prototype was in that factory.
2) The design for that device was stored on a computer which went up in smoke.
3) He doesn't back up his systems and send data off site to a place like Iron Mountain? This means all his work, payroll records, permits filed, all contracts, they were all destroyed?
4) Rossi can't seem to now recall the secret that caused his TE device to have such high efficiency?
5) Where is his latest factory, does he have fire or arson insurance? So, on the TE device, if you look at the testing protocol it looks like it was designed by Rossi. We're in the 21st century, all he had to do to get a continuous flow of data was a few keystrokes and no, I seriously doubt it would fill up the hard drive. They have these things called networks now that allows you to put the monitoring laptop(s) on the network and be able to use almost unlimited storage.
Since this thing is supposed to be Nuclear, fission or fusion, either way, no one expects the NRC to do anything but use everything in their power to
A) shut it down, that's assuming the NRC is filled with Bama's fellow travelers who want us to live in the 18th century while they, our bettors, will manage what is good for us. Or
B) get their mits on this thing and create a regulation manual two feet high that has regulations that are impossible to meet? Assuming everything Rossi said is true, just getting past regulations in each country where one of these things is going to be put will take a generation, even with the right payoffs.
This is a good read:
Again, we always hear about Rossi and his factories. Where are they, how many employees in each and what is he making?
I would love to see the state that other 'energy' promoters are in such as Dennis Lee and Joseph Newman, they must be so frustrated to see Rossi's scam work so well.
Finally, some information from respectable (mostly) journals:
Let's address some rumors:
There were reports that Rossi's mystery buyer were:
The U.S. Navy
According to these links, The U.S. Navy, SPAWAR or NI did not buy the plant: NI Statement via Forbes II.
Here's an interesting quote from the, New Energy Time II link.
...Sander Olson, a writer for Next Big Future, contacted me yesterday about the SPAWAR rumor.
After having read your articles on E-CAT and receiving independent confirmation from SPAWAR that they are not taking possession of any device from Rossi, Olson wrote, I have decided that he is almost certainly a fraud and [I] will not pursue an interview. I always suspected that he was a fraud and I now find the evidence overwhelming. Thank you for providing assistance in this matter.
Finally, Rossi does have a real degree: He earned a bachelors degree in 1973 in the philosophy of science and engineering from the University of Milans School of Philosophy.
There is zero evidence there is a customer...plzzzzzzzzzzz
oh, he will be discovered, the question is whether he will be caught.
fantastic! Great job pulling this all together in a well written reply!
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