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Thanks rjbemsha. |
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Posted on 07/20/2012 6:55:45 PM PDT by rjbemsha
Consistent rain and warm temperatures may have given the Mongols the energy source they needed to conquer Eurasia: grass for their horses (huge amount of grass needed to feed the 10 horses for each Mongol warrior).
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
Ghengis Kahn’s decedents ruled into the 20th century. His is an amazing story of conquest and it was benevolent (for the most part...if you can get beyond that “give us 10% for protection or all in this city will die” part) He and his offspring were responsible for printed currency, the postal service...and the plague that decimated Europe. (not intentionally, though)
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| GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach | |
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Thanks rjbemsha. |
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That's much better than the Bush tax cuts!
That casts the Mongol conquests in a whole 'nuther light!
Sirry Mongorians.
Mongo just pawn in game of life.
ah yes... the ‘everybody in this city dies’ = benevolence.
Gotcha.
Benevolent Mongols. That is of course why they killed roughly 10% of the world’s population, more than any other group has ever been able to achieve.
Even the 20th century commies were only able to get up to maybe 3%.
History is what it was, who knows the truth these many millennia later. No sense arguing.
Sorry, not if you were Han (Chinese). Their rule was brutal, but short lived. Where did you get this Ghengis Kahn's decedents ruled into the 20th century from?
As for the warm climate fuel the Mongol expansion into the West, too early to speculate at this point.
Technically speaking, the Mongol Empire was less than a millenium ago. But who’s counting.
I was deployed to Uzbekistan in 2003. Local contractor secretaries were all beautiful Uzbek girls. They spoke excellent English, thought Islam sucks, liked vodka & rock music, and dressed as they pleased. Hated Afghanistan & burkas.
But all their national heroes were Genghis Khan (Temujin), Tamerlaine (Timur the Lame), Aleksandr Makedonskii (Alex the Great), and Josef Stalin. Tyrants and destroyers. And we liked to say that if the USSR were still around, every one of these lovelies would be some Soviet colonel’s b*tch.
Democracy? Rights of the individual? Never heard of those in Central Asia.
Hessl’s an idiot about history. Consistently wet weather might have produced rain for the Mongol horseherds, but it would have played hob with the Mongols’ principal weapon - the recurve bow. Mongol bows were made of wood, horn and other materials, held together by a glue made of fish . The glue was not waterproof, and neither were the strings for the bows.
And the Mongol capital wan’t moved to Beiging because of weather. Qublai Quan moved it there after defeating his brother Ariq Boka for the Supreme Quanship of the Mongol empire because: [1] Northern China was part of the Ulus granted him by his brother Mongke Qa Quan, [2] He was also the Emperor of China [at least the Chin part; and he was well on his way to conquering the Sung].
I think he meant 19th century. The Moguls of India were, at least in theory, his descendants and they weren't kicked off the throne in India until the Mutiny of 1857. Though their rule had been pretty theoretical for quite some time by then.
Also pretty much all the Central Asian rulers down to their conquest by the Russians were his descendants.
About 8% of the population of a rather large area of Asia may be descended from him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_from_Genghis_Khan#DNA_evidence_-_The_Genghis_Khan_Effect
I know...yet I stand by my statement.
Actually, looks like the Qing Emperors of China were all his descendants, with their empire lasting till 1910.
In fact the Japs put the last of this line in as the puppet ruler of Manchuria, which lasted till 1945.
Uzbeks are an interesting people. They are basically Iranic peoples who became Turkified. Timurids wrecked their area, but he is loved?? The Iranic peoples of Uzbekistan were part of Bactria, which was a Hellenized kingdom after Iskandar.
His last direct descendant died in China in 1984, I believe.
Not so. the Quin were Manchus.
“Uzbeks - They are the weak link in the great chain of socialism”
According to Wikipedia, the Qing were descendants of Ghengis Khan through marriage. Some Manchus marrried Yuan princesses. Then again, it’s Wikipedia.
The Qing were Manchus. Their emperors frequently intermarried with Mongol princesses, descended from Genghis, for political reasons.
Here’s one example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Dowager_Xiaozhuang
Since she was early in the dynasty, all succeeding emperors were descended from her, and through her from Genghis.
Benevolent?? Total horse poop!! He decimated the area of Iran among other areas in the West, and at one point decided to massacre 30,000,000 Chinese to return the land to pasture. I guess he was worried about global warming.
The area that is now Iraq was densely populated and among the most prosperous and politically important areas in the world continuously for something like four or five thousand years. Under Sumerians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Parthians, Persians (again), intermittently Romans and Byzantines, and Arab and Turkish Moslems.
Hundreds of wars were fought back and forth across this land over this period. Canals were destroyed, but always rebuilt by the peasantry, reviving the prosperity.
700 years ago the Mongols rolled thru and not only destroyed the canals but killed the peasants. Nobody left to rebuild. The area has never recovered its former prosperity.
Forgot the Greeks in there, though there were also many others over the millenia.
Doubtful. More like three or four.
Ten each for a 25,000 man army would be 250,000 horses. I suspect even heavy rainfall can't produce that much grass.
Tamerlaine’s statue is in Samarkand near his tomb (read how Stalin profaining T’s remains in 1941 nearly cost him the war). T’s image is on their coins & the 500 soum note (near to a US dollar in value). The girls there told me that in Uzbekistan the national heroes are either poets or conquerors.
“Uzbeks - They are the weak link in the great chain of socialism”
That sounds like either Lenin or Stalin. Years ago I wrote my master’s thesis about ethnicity in the Russian & Soviet military. In 1916 the Russian army ran so short of conscripts that they began drafting Central Asians. This resulted in the Karshi Draft Riots of 1916 where thousands of Uzbeks were killed resisting conscription.
The U.S. base in Uzbekistan was the old Soviet airbase Karshi-Khanabad, near where these riots took place nearly a century before.
And speaking of the weak link, one of the KBR secretaries boasted to me that she admired Stalin & wished that UZ was still part of the Soviet Union! In fact, most of the Uzbek young people had some nostalgia for communism. I think it was the wannabe factor - acting Russian was their way of appearing modern & connected with the world.
You realize of course you’re wasting your breath — the only other advocacy group for a former bloodthirsty mass-murdering despot that comes close to the devotion of the fans of GK are those who prefer the (benevolent, peaceful) Persians over the Greeks. Asking for tokens of submission? That was just symbolic. Moving a couple of hundred thousand troops across a pontoon bridge was just a peace parade.
No. Qing from Manchuria are a different race than Mongolians. They are two different hords. Both invaded China at different time periods when she’s divided by internal strife.
I'll try to find it. I know I read it in "Ghengis Khan and the Making of the Modern World" by Jack Weatherford.
Unfortunately, this is like saying the English are a different nation than the Germans, therefore English royalty has no German blood. In actual fact, of course, they are pretty much of pure German blood, with Di’s kids being the first infusion of actual English blood in several centuries.
The Empresses of the Qing Emperors, the mothers of the next Emperor, were almost all, for political reasons, Mongol princesses. This meant that the second emperor was half Mongol by blood, the third emperor 3/4 Mongol, the fourth one 7/8 Mongol, etc.
So culturally and by legal descent the Qing Emperors were Manchu, but Pu Yi, the Last Emperor, was probably upwards of 90% Mongol by blood. You could go back and look at the whole line of descent and figure out the actual percentage.
Won’t have to worry about the Mongols invading my neighborhood this month.
"Ghengis Khan and the Making of the Modern World" by Jack Weatherford.
Mongolians were absorbed into Han, both population-wise and culturally. Those who stayed in China, that is.
I haven’t studied Qing royal blood lines and not sure of the Mongolian princesses claim.
I am sure I would have been taught at school and remembered it. (I am Chinese.)
He lived in a brutal era as his own youth demonstrates. He was, indeed, benevolent by the standards of his time, and he and his decedents did a lot to open up trade routes from east to west...and kept them safe for travel which was a situation never experienced up until then. Unfortunately it was these trade routes that allowed the black plague to find it’s way to Europe. I think it was more Kublai that had the dealings with the Chinese.
Mea culpa.
That’s what I get for taking the word of Wiki without digging deeper. Wiki said the Empresses were mostly Mongol.
So I looked up the actual mothers of each emperor, to extent I could find them. It looks like every one was Manchu.
Secondary wives were no doubt often Mongol, but it looks like the mothers were all Manchu. Assuming the data I found is correct.
You are of course quite correct about the assimilation bit. Various steppe tribes had been raiding and conquering into China for three or four thousand years, sharing their genes with great enthusiasm.
It is my undertanding the the Black Death came into Europe from Middle East Ports by ship rats debarking in places like Italy. The rats might have gotten to the ports via the trade routes, but the final step was by sea. An interesting book is Rats, Lice and History by Zinzer (sp?).
I read it was transported via the fleas that accompanied the caravans from China to Europe. One, both or neither might be true. We’ll probably never know at this point. History is always somewhat suspect.
Yes, 3-4 horses per warrior seems reasonable for a Mongol army on the move. But ten horses per warrior seems reasonable if you are looking at the number of horses in the Mongolian homeland.
The census of the Bogd Empire in 1918 showed about 1.1 million horses against roughly 640 thousand population. Just guessing, but if you figure one warrior for every six persons, you get a ratio of about ten horses per warrior.
Your point about the glue of the recurve bow being weakened by wet weather is interesting. If so, that would have tended to limit Mongol conquests to areas with arid climates and would account in part for the Mongols’ withdrawal from their conquest of Hungary.
The Mongols withdrew from Hungary because the death of Uggedai Qa Quan required a quiriltai to choose his successor. Since many of the princes of the blood were on csmpaign in the west, they returned wioth their personal troops. So Batu Quan pulled back to Russia, after laying waste to Hungary.
That process took something like three years or more, with Uggedai’s widow, Toregene ruling as regent. Her efforts to see her son Guyuk succeed were successful, but they resulted in the first cracks in the house of Temujin, since Uggedai had wanted his grandson Siremun to succeed him, and Batu Quan, who held the largest ulus in the Empire not only failed to attend and give his oath, but had fought with Guyuk in the West. His antipathy, coupled with the ambitions of the sons of Tolui, would take the Supreme Quanship from the Uggedids within five years.
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