Posted on 07/26/2005 1:20:19 AM PDT by onja
If this isn't appropiate please cut it.
I'm trying to get my facts straight so I don't mind correction if I'm wrong.
Carthage was an important figure in history. They were the heirs of Phoenicia and were the main traders of the Mediterranean. They controlled Northern Africa, Sicily, Sardinia, and Spain. They posed a very real threat to Rome and its allies. So much that the Romans destroyed them with no pity at all in the Third Punic War with absolutely no pretense other than that the Carthaginians were regaining the trade business. I went to my local library found a several bookcases full of Roman history. Most of another with Greek. Many more with all the Mesopotamian cultures, European, a whole shelf of Egyptian, another of Chinese, most of another of Indian. And not a single book on Carthage.
Some mercenaries captured a city in NE Sicily. They butchered the men and enslaved the women. The leader of Syracuse was tired of the mercenaries raiding him so he prepared to attack them. The mercenaries asked for help. Carthage responded but attacked the mercenaries instead. Rome ignored it till Carthage had captured the city. They then made an alliance with the mercenaries, who recently had been the enemy of all, and attacked the Carthaginians. It was a fairly even fight but after 23 years the Carthaginians gave up. They relinquished control of Sicily and paid a lot of money. They were at a loss then to pay their armies so the mercenaries revolted. In the chaos Rome took Sardinia and Carthage couldn’t stop them.
Seeking to regain wealth they conquered most of Spain. Spain was divided between the two and Carthage was told to not bear arms above a certain river. Sarguntum was well below that mark so Rome had no legal right there or even having an alliance there. Also the Sarguntums had attacked Carthage’s allies and massacred their own pro-Carthage citizens. So, rightly, Hannibal attacked and captured the city. The Romans demanded Hannibal and of course they didn’t get him and declared war. Hannibal crossed the mountains, allied with Gaul, and defeated many armies (Cannae anyone?). He lost because he had planned to have Northern Roman peoples to side with him. They would have but they hated Gauls. Rome, cunningly, invaded Carthage, won ONE battle, and so won the war. Carthage lost Spain, Hannibal, and all their remaining wealth.
Rome was very harsh with Carthage. They were not allowed to declare war or do almost anything. But, miracle it is, they became wealthy again and paid back the debt. Still, militarily they were by no means a threat. The Numidians attacked Carthage. Carthage tried (Unsuccessfully)to defend themselves and Rome told them to pay a lot more money and declared war. After pleading and diplomacy they were told to send 300 noblemen’s children as hostages and they would have peace. They did. The Romans ignored them and landed at the traitorous city of Utica. They were told they would stop if they gave up their weapons. They did and Rome ignored them again. The entire city worked hard and built new weapons soon. Slaves were freed and enthusiastically fought. The city of Carthage resisted the siege and general attack for three years. The Romans then took it after 6 days of harsh fighting. The Carthaginians fought bravely. The very last stand was made though by Roman deserters who fought to the death. Out of over 700,000 only 50,000 survived. Many of these were enslaved. The city was burned for 10 days. The harbor was destroyed. The fields sown with salt.
P.S. - I watched a good Reagan documentary recently but they started the movie by comparing U.S. vs. Russia as Rome vs. Carthage. They said the Romans were the good, civil, democratic people while the Carthaginians were evil tyrants. Like the Romans were any better. Blast Cato (ended every speech saying Carthage should be destroyed).
And yet, Rome endured and Carthage bit the dust. There's a lesson in there somewhere.
Look. You might not like the outcome of the Third Punic War, but it was the THIRD Punic War. You'd be sick of anyone after the third war. Talk about your quagmires.
Personally, I remember Carthage every time I hear a song by Dido.
There is a sequel to the story. Carthage was rebuilt by order of Julius Caesar, and soon became again a great city. After the Muslim conquest of North Africa, it was destroyed again in A.D. 698, and has not been rebuilt.
It's amazing that the Romans were able to come back after Cannae.
But not inhabited by Carthaginians. The Romans were saints compared to the muslims though.
Read Livy (Penguin Books) Roman historian, covers the Punic Wars.
i don't have a negative opinion about carthage.
you have to admit that after hannibal slipped around the mediterranean, through the alps, and down into the peninsula of what is now italy, that romans couldn't ignore him. he was there for some 14 years or so!
rome filled a vacuum of power, provided relief to many individual cities and states, and became an empire in the process.
Carthage didn't pay it mercenaries because it coudn't. It was momentarily poor. The Romans broke the treaty first by allying with Sarguntum. Also he couldn't stand by and watch Sarguntum kill his allies.
Yeah. They did had the problem of religion which is the only problem I have with it. Sad that perfect CArthage has that big flaw. But the Romans had the Collosium. In which many many thousands died for entertainment and execution. It was a different time. But also the Carthaginians were not so arrogant and were easily allyable with barbarians. The Romans were the mortal enemies of them which caused (eventually) their downfall.
And, in case you need to know, I am biased towards Carthage big time. But of course the majority of people are biased towards Rome.
Is it good? All of my stuff came from wiccapedia.
Hitch your wagon to a star...
Carthage was the aggressor, Carthage invaded Italy (you have heard of Hannibal?), Carthage lied and cheated, Carthage re-armed and Rome viewed that as a threat and responded by defeating its armies and sacking the city. Cato had it right.
A Carthaginian work on farming was retained by the Romans as a valued and standard text (alas, it hasn't survived), and having to defend itself against Hannibal and against the Carthaginian navy made Rome improve militarily.
The Romans were well organized and inventive. They weren't good sea men like Carthage so they board them and turn a naval battle into a land battle. Scipio Africanus was a great General. The only of Romans of his time who was competent. Without him the war likely would have taken a different turn.
Hannibal invaded after Rome declared war on him for defending his allies against Rome's illegal ally. Where did they lie and cheat? They rearmed only after Rome told them they weren't going to stop. The Carthaginians fought bravely, didn't lie or cheat(correct me if I'm wrong), died fighting valiantly, and had many of the other Roman values which the Romans so prized.
"the Carthaginians were not so arrogant and were easily allyable with barbarians. The Romans were the mortal enemies of them which caused (eventually) their downfall."
The Carthaginians were barbarians in Roman eyes, but to say the Carthaginians weren't arrogant while the Romans were isn't discussion.
Also, the Romans had fully half their army made up of auxiliary units which were non-Roman, and after Rome got to be a big deal (and the Senatorial corruption undermined incentives for citizens to serve in the Roman army) even the regular legions were not all that Roman. The Roman empire was a "barbarian" empire.
Sounds like your big time bias toward Carthage is moving off toward disorder. Ancient people were just people, no matter who they were, and shouldn't be idealized.
The Carthaginians/Phoenicians were renowned as sailors and merchants. The Periplus of Hanno (used to be a thread about that on FR) describes a Carthaginian expedition along the Atlantic coast of Africa as far south (at least) as Mount Cameroun. Herodotus (a Greek writer, who was born in a Carian town) records the story of an Egyptian pharaoh who hired Phoenicians to depart the Red Sea and circumnavigate Africa.
On a more poetic note -- in an old (1974 I think) issue of National Geographic, the cover story is "The Phoenicians". The article begins near ancient Tyre in Lebanon, where the fishermen are hauling back their nets, chanting "el-leee-sah". One of the sources interviewed by the author of that story is quoted as saying, "If you ask them why they do it, they can't tell you. They don't know... Elissa, Princess of Tyre..."
The Carthaginians were such liars that even the story of the founding of Carthage is about deception on the part of Elissa/Dido. A contract with a Carthaginian wasn't worth anything without the force of steel behind it. This made the Carthaginians take long chances in trade, because they would merely try to shirk on the terms of their contracts if the ship went down, the cargo was low quality or taken by pirates, or the market price fell by the time it reached its destination.
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Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
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"All of my stuff came from wiccapedia."
That's "Wikipedia", not "wiccapedia". WiccaPedia is an electrolyte restoring drink for wannabee witches.
a history of the Punic Wars:
http://history.boisestate.edu/westciv/punicwar/
Yeah. The Cathaginians weren't perfect. Still, other than religion wise(killing children), they seem to be a very good society. The Carthaginians were a very cultured society and had many of the Roman ideals. But I think(not sure) the Carthaginians were liked better because they treated barbarians moreso(not completely) like equals.
sorry. mistyping.
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