No Clapping, Dancing at Mass, Vatican to Warn

Reuters ^ | Tue, Sep 23, 2003 | Philip Pullella

[presidio9]

No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls.

Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship.

According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.

The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition.

If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe.

According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function."

The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.

Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans.

Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified.

The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building."

Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause.

Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events.

The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version.

The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets.

It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion.

Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.

"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.

[ArrogantBustard]

My hair is long and I've had to fight off all sorts of well meaning women to keep it that way.

Bless you, child. Mrs. Bustard has hair down to her waist (or maybe a little longer). She likes it, I like it, everybody else can PO. And I don't mind having to snake the drain rather more often than I otherwise might.

[BlackElk]

This is why God created (OK, I exaggerate just a little) TAN Books and Publishers in Rockford, Illinois, to give you every bit of genuine Catholic teaching that you were deprived of in youth. Sittnick can connect you since I am a computer illiterate. You will find TAN to be a source of great and reasonably affordable truth and joy whether as to your own knowledge of the Faith or as to the materials you need to transmit the Faith to your homeschooled children (and history and Catholic literature and soooo much more). Enjoy.

[Aliska]

I hope and pray you go back to Mass. I'll say a rosary tonight for your intentions.

Thank you for your kind thoughts. I don't want to go to a heaven where I am not equal. I don't want to go to a church where I don't feel equal. I don't want to be around cold, unloving people.

I feel guilty that you would waste your prayers on me.

I tried confession. It is like talking to a stone. You feel like the person hearing you doesn't have any of the doubts and fears you do.

[Aquinasfan]

I have lived around Southern Baptists most of my life and have not once seen any such attitudes. Care to share an example from real life?

"Are you saved?" I mean, please.

[Desdemona]

People wear hats and veils at my church. All the time. No one comments.

[Havoc]

Sorry, that's just what it looked like to me. I didn't see anything I'd classify as scurrilous. I'll refrain from lecturing, I just think we can all do better..

[frithguild]

God wants us all to have joy in our hearts in our lives and to celebrate him.

Why not dance?

1After Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in the towns of Galilee.[1] 2When John heard in prison what Christ was doing, he sent his disciples 3to ask him, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?" 4Jesus replied, "Go back and report to John what you hear and see: 5The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy[2] are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor. 6Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me." 7As John's disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: "What did you go out into the desert to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 8If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are in kings' palaces. 9Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10This is the one about whom it is written: " 'I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'[3] 11I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. 13For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15He who has ears, let him hear. 16"To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others: 17" 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge and you did not mourn.' 18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."

Matthew 11

[truthingod]

I am sorry if you have had someone treat you unkind or even acted strange by being open in the expression of worship. I understand when somone acts something out in the flesh in church. I have seen it lots of times. For me,worship is a way of life, both in and out of the church. I treat the house of God with great respect, but I don't worship the building, just the God who knits hearts together to be His church. I would hope if I ever had the opportunity to stand next to you in church, that I could worship in a way that helps you into the presence of God for the time He is there, not just for a "high". I don't think Moses got a "high" from his burning bush moment--it changed his life forever. That should be the focus for times of worship-so that we are being changed from glory to glory.

[miss marmelstein]

An amazing description! Why is it that it is always the losers in the congregation who want to sing off-key solos, practice mime in the church aisles and hand out the consecrated host as if it was Halloween candy?

[Desdemona]

And I don't mind having to snake the drain rather more often than I otherwise might.

A little bleach once a week down the drain takes care of that.

[TxBec]

Bought 'em, got em (We are on the Fr. John Laux series)

We also use the Baltimore Catechism. Thanks!!!!

[BlessedBeGod]

They really are clapping for God, not for themselves.

When I said "they" were clapping for themselves, I meant those who clap at times in the Catholic Church. The moments when they feel they "should" clap are never moments that have to do with worshipping God.

[Aquinasfan]

I remember when I was Catholic 15 years ago they kept adding rock-style music to attract the teens. Being one of those teens, I did not feel at all spiritual.

Reminds me of when the cast from "You're a Good Man Charlie Brown" performed at our elementary school. All of us knew that something deeply wrong was going down. 8-)

[Marysecretary]

God says in His word that if we don't praise Him, the rocks will! I sense His presence more in worship than I do any other time. It's good to worship Him in church AND in your home. You can dispel a lot of gloom when you worship. I found that out after my divorce. When I began to sing unto the Lord, it lifted my spirits. I love it when the children learn to dance and do the banners. What a joy that is.

[Terriergal]

Now this strikes me as nitpicking legalism... (present in many many churches both protestant and Catholic, in many different forms.)

[dangus]

>> It can be one or a billion, but having "issues" with dancing in praise of the LORD is scripturally unsupported.

>> And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.

David also allowed his soldiers to consume consecrated food, a big no-no under Mosaic law. (It was deemed okay, because it was necessary.)

His dancing was not during high ritual, and Paul talks against people speaking out during "prayer meetings," an apparent reference to mass. During the mass, the attention should be on the Word, and the Eucharist. At other times, people may engage in their own private practices, so long as they do not disturb others.

[Aliska]

And you got the county to pay - good for you, I guess.

Yes, government welfare pays for my therapy. And that is better for me than the alternative which is no therapy.

[.45MAN]

In one of the parishes that I lived in the priest made the statement one Sunday that we should dress as though we were going to meet and talk to Jesus. the following week he stood at the door and turned people away who were not dressed to meet Jesus. After a month or so, with some people not comming back every one in church was dressed to meet Jesus. Besides the fact to you could hear a feather hit the floor.....

[BlessedBeGod]

I'm talking about the specific times they clap: for the choir, as someone pointed out above for a bake sale, etc. It's to glorify themselves, not God. The focus is off of God.

And I'm talking about the Catholic Church, not others.