The Christ of Arminianism

A Puritan's Mind ^ | unknown | Rev. Steven Houck

[ventana]

Having read this several times, it makes no sense

I agree, its pretty obtuse.

But I think the point he is attempting to make is noteworthy. As one who believes the mission Jesus charged us to perform (working to bring others to Christ) is useful to Him, my feeling is this: many of those who deny the efficacy of that mission from a position of alleged authority and contend the scriptures "prove" their case are actively propagandizing against the earthly mission of Christ's Church.

And what else would the adversary do to "improve" on that situation?

The possible loss of salvation of others is a high price to pay for what comes down to an argument over semantics.

v.

[drstevej]

*** an argument over semantics***

Sometimes semantics is well worth arguing over (e.g. Athanatius).

[ThomasMore]

The Christ of the Roman Catholics can not save sinners without their own good works and the intercession of priests. He is not the Christ of the Bible. We are not deceived by this Christ. He is a false Christ.

This is the most idiotic statement and anti-Catholic bucnh of h****sh*t I've read recently. This man knows nothing of Catholic theology.

[CCWoody]

Hi Mack. Are you advocating simple foreknowledge? ~ RF to Big Mack

I would point out that the "simple foreknowledge" view actually contradicts the golden chain of Predestination. After all, if God foreknew those who had faith and then chose to "justify" them, He is making a lie of His own scriptures. Those who have this kind of faith are already justified.


"Whom He called, these He also justified."

What the call creates is faith. The call of God is not a mere invitation to people with the power of self-determination. It is an act of creation in people who are spiritually dead. When God looked forward into history He did not see a people using powers of self-determination to believe; he saw people enslaved to sin and spiritual death, whose only hope was that the sovereign call of God would create the faith He commands.


• Our glorification is guranteed by out being justified graciously by God.
• Our justification is guaranteed by our being called graciously by God.
• Our calling is guranteed by our being predestined graciously by God.
• Our predestination is guaranteed by our being freely and graciously and intimately known by God.

It is utterly impossible for God to foresee faith which He did not create in us. Faith justifys and if man already has justifying faith, then God Predestining, calling, & justifying us is a lie. God cannot justify that which is already just.

Besides, the Arminians problem is actually even more simple than that. In order for the Arminians construct to be true, he must actually deny God Omnipotence in order to uphold this kind of "Omniscience." After all, if God, from before the foundation of the world is able to see all potentials which He may sovereignly choose to create, then, simply by that act of creating this over that, He has chosen the ends of all eternity, just exactly as we are told in the Scriptures:

Matthew 11: 20 - 27 -- Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
• God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.

And, so, even granting God a "simple foreknowledge," the thoughtless Arminian has still not changed the reality that it is God who chose and not man. Eventually, the Arminians will get around to figuring this out, which is why the first Arminians & Wesley were "Middle Knowledge" heretics. They really are of the same spirit as the Pelagian heretics.

Woody.

You Might Be an Arminian If....

You think that "Calvinism" is arrogant for saying that God elects some and not others, but you think you are really humble for saying that God elected you because He knew you'd think He was a pretty swell dude for offering you a life preserver even though you were only in the shallow end of the pool anyway, and that in your niceness, you'd accept His offer of your own "free will".

[CCWoody]

I suspect there may be some very active Satanists who have dedicated themselves to promoting Calvinism.... ~ Cvengr

OK, so to understand you, first one of us might not be saved, and now some of us are Satanists. Er, OK, Mr. pompous Peacock.

Woody.

[Frumanchu]

It is you who is putting into scripture what is not there. How do you explain 2 Peter 3:9? You never got around to explaining that......or did you deliberately leave it out because it defeats your "own interpretation of the Bible?

In its context this section follows strong words against false teachers in Chapter 2. Entering Chapter 3 Peter reminds them of what he covered largely in his first epistle, the promise and security of salvation and the trust and obedience of the saints. He warns them that scoffers will come in the last days sarcastically saying 'where is your Christ that's supposed to come? all this evil is around as it has always been and he hasn't come in judgement to wipe it all out!' Peter reminds them that just as the world was created and brought forth by the word, and by the word was judged in the flood wiping out mankind, so the word now preserves the present world, reserving it for the final judgement. Peter then reminds them that God is not bound by time...a thousand years with Him is as a day and vice versa. He is not slack concerning His promise. What promise? The promise that He will one day come in righteous judgement and bring an end to all unrighteousness. So why has it not happened yet? Because He is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any [of us] should perish but that all [of us] should come to repentance.

Obviously salvation is in view here. Let's take a closer look at the possible interpretations of the verse. I think both sides must agree from a grammatical that 'any' and 'all' refer back to the 'us' in the verse. The point of contention is whether 'us' is mankind/all individuals (of which Peter and his audience are members) or the elect (of which Peter and all true believers are members).

First, if we take the former, Arminian position and assume that the 'any' and 'all' refer to every individual person, then we have God reserving His judgement to give every person opportunity to come to repentance. The question must be asked then, at what point does He say "enough" and end it. What's the cutoff? What about those who were never given the chance? Or does Judgement really never come so long as men are being born? This interpretation seems to leave a number of questions unanswered.

Now let's look at it from the latter, Calvinist point of view and assume that 'any' and 'all' refer to the elect. Since Peter speaks to them in contrast to false teachers, scoffers, etc. it can be reasonable to assume that those he is addressing, the recipients of the promise, are the saints...the believers. Looking at it in light of election we have Him being lonsuffering toward us [the elect], not willing that any [of the elect] should perish, but that all [of the elect] should come to repentance.

The objection has been raised...'if the elect are necessarily going to be saved anyway, then why does he even need to say this?' Again, look at the context. The scoffers have implied that the delay in His return means He's not really coming. Peter's purpose in 3:8-9 is to reassure his audience that there is nothing to fear. He is not slack, but rather patient and operating according to His own timetable. Furthermore, if He were to respond to the scoffers by showing up 'ahead of schedule' there is a big problem. The full number of the Gentiles will not have been reached. While election before the foundation of the world is UNTO salvation, it is not in and of itself the instrumental CAUSE of salvation. Election is a decree. Salvation is the carrying out of that decree. If He were to come prematurely, there would be men who were elect but that had not yet come to repentance and salvation. In essence, God would be abandoning the elect! And thus we have Peter's words...He is longsuffering towards the elect. He will not abandon them. He WILL bring each and every last one of His elect to salvation.

"Peter’s Christian readers must realize that the apparent delay of divine judgment is a sign of God’s forbearance and mercy toward them, particularly toward the believers in their midst who have been confused and misled by the false teachers. Note that the scope of “all” is qualified by the word “us.” The repentance in view, for the sake of which God delays judgment, is that of God’s people rather than the world at large. God is not willing that any of His elect should perish (John 6:39)."

New Geneva study Bible. 1997, c1995 (electronic ed.) (2 Pe 3:9). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

[RnMomof7]

What you're saying is that Jesus told His disciples to do something that would absolutely worthless, waste of time, and even blasphemous since it is God who will choose who is saved, According to "The Gospel According to nobdysfool".

Weber, God has graciously allowed us to be a part of His plan of salvation. He has decreed that it would be His word , preached by man that would bring faith to salvation .

I believe that in making us co workers in His field He shows us that we are indeed His adopted sons/daughters and brothers of Christ.

No man knows who God has chosen and that will respond to the free offer of the gospel . Spurgeon once said that if the elect had a yellow stripe down his back we would go around lifting shirts to find them to give them the gospel

We have done entire threads on the 2 Peter verse. You may want to read the verse in context , I think you might understand . It is written about the end times . It is a prophecy, it was written to believers and the ones God will wait for is the completion of the salvation of His elect, not every man without exception, for as you can see if God waited until every man was saved there would never be a second coming

[nobdysfool]

I suspect there may be some very active Satanists who have dedicated themselves to promoting Calvinism...

LOL! The innuendo here is truly amazing. Not content to question my salvation because I don't agree with your convoluted doctrine, now you want to imply that Calvinism has been hi-jacked by Satanists? Unbelieveable! I would hope that any reasoning person would see your post for what it is: lies, slander, and outright fabrication, because you can't deal with the doctrine. Save the name calling for another thread. I did not call anyone a name here, and I don't want this thread to degenerate into that. Deal with the doctrine instead of starting with the ad hominem attacks. You know better than that!

[nobdysfool]

This is the most idiotic statement and anti-Catholic bucnh of h****sh*t I've read recently. This man knows nothing of Catholic theology.

Well, just your saying so doesn't negate what the article says. Scriptural proof is what is required. Church Tradition won't cut it, neither will Papal pronouncements ex cathedra. We speak sola scriptura here. Feel free to show us from scripture.

[RnMomof7]

You may remember that the Lord gave a parable about this, recorded in Luke 15. There was a shepherd, a good shepherd, who represents the Lord Jesus. One sheep got lost, got away. You would think He might say, “Well, let him go. We’ve got ninety-nine of them safe in the fold. That’s a good percentage.” Anyone raising sheep knows that if you get to market with a little over fifty percent of those that are born, you’re doing well. But this is an unusual shepherd. He is not satisfied with ninety-nine. If He justifies one hundred sheep, He’s going to glorify one hundred sheep.

Mack my friend, I would like you to consider the parable of the lost sheep. Jesus is the Good Shepherd that goes out and looks for HIS lost sheep. He did not poach the sheep that belong to other. He knew each of them by name, He called them by name . The knew His voice and they responded and came.

In Matthew we read Jesus say that all are not intended to HEAR Him. The only ones that hear the shepherds call to come are those that were already His from before the foundation of the earth .

The entire of lost parables is the owner finding that which was already his.

Mack God will never lose you , even if you strayed a bit. He knows where you are every moment.

The doctrine of election means that the Lord will be coming home with one hundred sheep! This is not a frightful doctrine; it is a wonderful doctrine. It means that BigMack going to be there; and it means you are going to be there, if you have trusted Christ. This is a most comforting doctrine in these uncertain days in which we live.

You are so right. It is a comfort

David put it this way

Psa 65:4   Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple.

The English word "blessedness" is derived from the root word for "blood" and suggests something set aside through sacrifice and in the Bible through Christ's sacrificial death for sins. Every aspect of the Christian life is embraced by blessedness with no credit assumed by the person experiencing it. It is purely God's grace.

[xzins]

I just don't get the point of this.

The closest allies of the Reformed and the Presbyterians and some Baptists have always been the other Baptists, the Methodists, and a host of other independent and evangelical Christians who also believe that Scripture is our sole rule of the Christian faith.

I do not understand the effort to equate these groups with false Christs and animus toward Christianity on the part of their closest allies.

It is Germany and France attacking the U.S. In the WWII it would have been Great Britain bombing America.

I simply don't understand what it springs from.

[nobdysfool]

webber isn't worked up and nbdyf again has been to first to call names and then accuse others of his vice. Your soul is scarred with these same weaknesses as from many posts before. Rejoice Christian.

webber is popping a head gasket, shouting in his posts, and you accuse me of calling people names...in what alternate reality did you see this? Certainly not in this one!!!

My soul is scarred, huh? I think that's quite funny, actually...you, who don't know me, and wouldn't know me if I were standing right behind you, are so discerning that you know me better than I do myself...in your dreams, C.

Now, when are you going to swallow your puffed up pride, and apologize for questioning my salvation? Sly references to Satanists only add to the problem. Please resolve this so we can move ahead in our discussions.

[RnMomof7]

Come on down anyway, Becky and I know this big ugly woman that needs a man, she can cook real good, and ya won't have to worry about her leaving ya. :)

He told us he is fussy..so have Becky look for a good looking woman that can cook :>)

[RnMomof7]

Jhn 3:16   For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Absolute truth . The question we need to ask is who will believe, who is capable of believing?

look at the preceding verses for a possible answer.

First Jesus has an exchange with Nicodemus .

Jhn 3:1   There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:     
Jhn 3:2   The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.   
  Jhn 3:3   Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So we know that a man can not see the kingdom until he is born again (regenerated) A dead man can not desire anything . So before He can desire or choose to believe and be saved God has to have done a work on him. God must give man a spiritual rebirth so that man can see and desire to be saved.

Then Jesus compares the cross to the staff of Moses in the desert. Just look in faith and you will be saved.

But wait a minute when they were in the desert many men refused to look and believe even though they were dying from snake venom (and all the pain that involves) Why did some look and believe and others not?

Jhn 3:6   That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.   
  Jhn 3:7   Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

So a man must be born again to be saved.That is a sovereign act of God . Just as you had no part in your own physical birth (it was a gift from your parents ) You heavenly Father gave you your new heart ..your new spiritual life.

So we are back to who will be born again and who will believe?

Jhn 6:44   No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.   

  Jhn 6:45   It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me

[Wrigley]

You leave yourself open to the same charge Corin. If you aren't going to play here, careful with what you comment on.

[Corin Stormhands]

If you aren't going to play here, careful with what you comment on.

Quote and link please.

[Wrigley]

If you aren't going to play here, careful with what you comment on.

[CCWoody]

Actually, after reading the article, I must conclude that the author has missed a thing or two:

The sad travisty of the truth which the Arminian calls god is not the true God of the Bible because:

1. This Arminian blasphemy is not truly Omniscient.
2. This Arminian blasphemy is not truly Omnipotent.

He doesn't know and he can't act.

Woody.

You Might Be an Arminian If....

You think that "Calvinism" is arrogant for saying that God elects some and not others, but you think you are really humble for saying that God elected you because He knew you'd think He was a pretty swell dude for offering you a life preserver even though you were only in the shallow end of the pool anyway, and that in your niceness, you'd accept His offer of your own "free will".

[Corin Stormhands]

Quote and link please.

[snerkel]

Ping to self for later read.