The Christ of Arminianism

The Bible warns us that in the last days in which we live there will be many false Christs-those who claim to be Christ but who are imposters. Jesus said, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying I am Christ; and shall deceive many." (Matt. 24:4-5). We who profess to be Christians must take heed. We must be very careful that we are not deceived. Our calling is to trust, love, and follow the true Christ and Him only. We may have nothing to do with the false Christs who are so numerous in our day.

We know about the Christ of the cults and other religions. He is a good man, a prophet, the first creation of God, a great spirit, a divine idea, or even a god himself. But he is not true and eternal God. He receives his existence from another who is greater than he. He is not the Christ of the Bible. We are not deceived by this Christ. He is a false Christ.

We know about the Christ of Roman Catholicism. They profess that He is true God. He suffered and died for the forgiveness of sin. He arose again, ascended into heaven, and is coming again. But he is not a complete Savior. The Christ of the Roman Catholics can not save sinners without their own good works and the intercession of priests. He is not the Christ of the Bible. We are not deceived by this Christ. He is a false Christ.

There is, however, another false Christ who is much more dangerous than the Christ of the cults and the Christ of Roman Catholicism. He has deceived people for many years and he continues to deceive millions. This Christ is so dangerous that, if it were not impossible, he would deceive the very elect (Matt. 24:24). He is the Christ of Arminianism.

This false Christ is extremely dangerous because in many ways he appears to be the True Christ. They say that he is true God, equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit. They say that he died on the cross to save sinners. They even say that he saves by his grace alone, without the work of man. This Christ will have nothing to do with the Christ of the cults and the Christ of Roman Catholicism.

But watch out! Be warned! The Christ of Arminianism is not the Christ of the Bible. Do not be fooled!

1. The Christ of Arminianism - loves every individual person in the world and sincerely desires their salvation.

The Christ of the Bible - earnestly loves and desires the salvation of only those whom God has unconditionally chosen to salvation. (Ps. 5:5, Ps. 7:11, Ps. 11:5, Matt. 11:27, John 17:9-10, Acts 2:47, Acts 13:48, Rom. 9:10-13, Rom. 9:21-24, Eph. 1:3-4)

2. The Christ of Arminianism - offers salvation to every sinner and does all in his power to bring them to salvation. His offer and work are often frustrated, for many refuse to come.

The Christ of the Bible - effectually calls to Himself only the elect and sovereignly brings them to salvation. Not one of them will be lost. (Isa. 55:11, John 5:21, John 6:37-40, John 10:25-30, John 17:2, Phil. 2:13)

3. The Christ of Arminianism - can not regenerate and save a sinner who does not first choose Christ with his own "free will." All men have a "free will" by which they can either accept or reject Christ. That "free will" may not be violated by Christ.

The Christ of the Bible - sovereignly regenerates the elect sinner apart from his choice, for without regeneration the spiritually dead sinner can not choose Christ. Faith is not man's contribution to salvation but the gift of Christ which He sovereignly imparts in regeneration. (John 3:3, John 6:44 & 65, John 15:16, Acts 11:18, Rom. 9:16, Eph. 2:1,Eph. 2:8-10, Phil. 1:29, Hebr. 12:2)

4. The Christ of Arminianism - died on the cross for every individual person and thereby made it possible for every person to be saved. His death, apart from the choice of man, was not able to actually save anyone for many for whom he died are lost.

The Christ of the Bible - died for only God's elect people and thereby actually obtained salvation for all those for whom He died. His death was a substitutionary satisfaction which actually took away the guilt of His chosen people. (Luke 19:10, John 10:14-15 & 26, Acts 20:28, Rom. 5:10, Eph. 5:25, Hebr. 9:12, I Peter 3:18)

5. The Christ of Arminianism - loses many whom he has "saved" because they do not continue in faith. Even if he does give them "eternal security," as some say, that security is not based upon his will or work but the choice which the sinner made when he accepted Christ.

The Christ of the Bible - preserves His chosen people so that they can not lose their salvation but persevere in the faith to the very end. He preserves them by the sovereign electing will of God, the power of His death, and the mighty working of His Spirit. (John 5:24, John 10:26-29, Rom. 8:29-30, Rom. 8:35-39, I Peter 1:2-5, Jude 24-25)

As you can see, although the Christ of Arminianism and the Christ of the Bible may at first seem to be the same, they are very different. One is a false Christ. The other is the true Christ. One is weak and helpless. He bows before the sovereign "free will" of man. The other is the reigning Lord Who wills what He pleases and sovereignly accomplishes all that He wills.

If you believe and serve the Christ of Arminianism, you must recognize the fact that you do not serve the Christ of the Bible. You have been deceived! Study the Scriptures and learn of the True Christ. Pray for grace to repent and trust Christ as your sovereign

For the record nbf, you point back and say that webber first started the "namecalling" on post 5. He referred to "heretics."

I've had numerous discussions on these threads about that very thing. Except it was the Calvinists calling Arminians and Catholics "heretics."

I would prefer that none of us use that term in referring to those whom we, albeit begrudgingly, recognize as our brothers and sisters in Christ.

But it is disingenuous at best to chastise an Arminian as a heretic and then squeal like a stuck pig when the term is reversed.

I've said it before. I don't think Calvinism is heresy. I think it's the wrong interpretation, yes man's interpretation of the gospel.

The common decency of the swarm to extend that same courtesy to the Arminians and the Catholics all the while disagreeing strongly about the doctrine would go a long way toward reducing the attacks on the messenger - of either side.

Matthew 22:35-40
Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, "Master, which is the great commandment in the law?"
Jesus said unto him, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (KJV)

I Corinthians 13
But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love. (NASB)

I see few here who are without fault when it comes to the bickering. I am certainly not blameless.

But tell me, where do the two passages above fit into Calvinism? Three and a half years in a Calvinist church and over a year and half either posting or lurking here. I just don't see it.

There are those who would say that their presentation of the "gospel" gives them license to be harsh and would even contend that because they have the "truth" then any method of presentation is valid.

I am certain that I will be soundly mocked for this. So be it. But, if the messengers do not wish to be attacked, it is time they changed their presentation.

What you are saying then is that predestination isn't REALLY predestination because God knows our "nature" and upon that "nature" he perceives in us He saves us. That "nature" is called "CHOICE". When we choose Jesus, then God Chooses us, but because He FOREKNEW that we would choose Jesus, He "predistined" from the beginning our salvation. BUT, if God chose NOT to foreknow the decision each of us would make, then He would not "predestine" us for salvation, but would have to wait to see what kind of "nature" we have. Jesus "chose" 12 disciples, BUT one of them decided to NOT become one of His "chosen" for salvation, and ended up "forsaking" Jesus.

John 1:6-12 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7) The same came for as a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that "ALL" men through Him might believe. 8) He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9) That was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY MAN that cometh INTO THE WORLD. 11) He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. He came unto His own, but his own received Him not. 12) BUT AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, TO THEM GAVE HE POWER TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD, EVEN TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME.

So we must First "receive Him" as LORD and Savior, then he gave them "power" to become sons of God. We "choose" Jesus FIRST, then He gives he gives us the power to become sons of God, Even to them that believe on His Name.

According to your "blasphemous religion there is. You are basing what you say on what you "think" the Bible is saying, but it's NOT UP TO YOU TO INTERPRET SCRIPTURE. It is SCRIPTURE that interpret SCRIPTURE, and if one scipture seems to contradict another, then it's because YOU misunderstood it's meaning.

Weber you cherry picked a verse and wanted to proof text with it. I am sorry that you see no value in reading the scripture in context.

God is not a God of Confusion, but of order. Your religion says God is merciful but He isn't to everybody, only to the one He's "Chosen", the rest can go to Hell.

Does God send the men he loves to hell? Your religion does not believe He is Merciful to ALL men does it?

God is gracious, but not to everyone, only to the one He's chosen, and rest can go to Hell.

God is holy and Just. But you do not get to decide what His justice should be. He does that .

He is a loving God, but not to all, just to the ones He's chosen, and the rest can go to Hell!

God loves al his creations, He gives all His general grace. But God does not OWE any man salvation . He does not have to meet webber's criteria. You do not get to make the plan of savlavtion. That was decided before the foundation of the earth

That's what "your Blasphemous, Heretical, Abominable, Apostate religion says. No thanks. I'll stick with the "TRUE" God. The one that says, "For God so loved the "WORLD" (That means EVERYONE) that He gave His only Begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER (that means who ever wants to be saved - It does not say "whosever He chooses", but "WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH ON HIM SHALL NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. (SALVATION)

Webber will all men be saved? What about the men that will never hear the gospel and never have the "choice"

I know this may upset you , but unregenerate men do not WANT to come . Only those that the Father draws will want to come

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

So Webber I send you off to bed with a new understanding .Jesus will save all men that come to Him. But the only ones that will comes were drawn by the Father with His grace. No man is restrained from coming. All may come if they will . But only those that the Father ends will come . Jesus said it and I believe it .That my friend is our basic disagreement.

Corin, I understand what you're saying, and I myslef would prefer calm, rational discussion of doctrine over flaming, insults, and the like. I tried at the very beginning to nip it in the bud with webber, but he continues. I've tried reasoning with him, teasing him, and confronting him. Nothing seems to work.

As for my ongoing conflict with Cvengr, that is something different. If you've followed it at all, you know what the issue is. I'm not asking for your support as much as I am for your understanding. I may be a Yankee, but I do have a bit of the "southern gentleman" in me when it comes to my personal integrity and honor.

I certainly would prefer that we discuss these things calmly and without rancor. Emotions can flare, and tempers rise, when one feels that a closely held belief is being challenged. I understand that. But resorting to ad hominem attacks hurling accusations, implying that Satanism may be worming it's way among us, who for the most part, all know each other, is completely beyond the pale.

Heretic is an overused word, although it's basic definiton is not what the word is commonly believed to mean. In regard to Christianity, it is rightly reserved for doctrines which attack the Diety of Christ, the Triunity of the Godhead, the Virgin Birth, Christ's literal Incarnation, His literal Resurrection, and His Atoning work on the Cross. There are other things for which it rightly implies, because it undermines broad portions of the Truth of scripture. Pelagianism comes to mind as an example of that.

Love is not always of the "can't we just all get along in one big happy family" kind. Sometimes Love confronts and rebukes. Sometimes Love takes a stand and does not brook any deviation. Sometimes Love sets conditions, and withdraws if those conditions aren't met. It's not all sweetness and light, rose petals and moonlit nights. "Love worketh no ill to its neighbor. Therefore Love is the fulfilling of the Law". Confronting error, taking a stand, rebuking and exhorting are not "working ill to our neighbor". They are acts of Love, love in action.

I do not mock you for asking these things. They are legitimate concerns. Thank you for bringing them up.

"The fact is if you make man superior to God and give man a will that is superior to God's will , then you have made man god and God weak in His ability to do that which He desires. I say that because it is an accurate assessment of how arminains see God in relationship to man."

So what you are saying is that God "Willed Adam and Eve to SIN because they didn't have any choice in the matter. God Almighty wanted all mankind to fall through the first man so that He could arbitrarily choose who He wanted to save and who he wanted to throw into hell.

I sure glad my God and Your god aren't the same God. Yours is more akin to "Allah" than "YHWH".

By the way, according to your religion, are all who are saved "white arians"?

"If He chooses to show mercy on some, who are you to say He can't? Who are you to say "That's unfair"? What's unfair about it?"

It's not unfair because God is long-suffering, not wishing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentence. (Not all "his chosen" to come to repentence like your blasphemous religion likes to insert.) God waited over 400 years for the people of Canaan to repent, but they would not, so He destroyed them. If God would arbitrarily "choose" who will be saved, and who will be condemned why did he wait 400 years for Canaan until their abomination was complete? If it was "arbitrary", then nothing that the people of Canaan did would have given them salvation. If God had already chosen them for hell-fire and brimstone, then they could have lived a perfect life and not be chosen. It was because they refused to turn from worshipping "false gods" that God's wrath was upon them, just like it eventually fell EVEN ON HIS OWN "CHOSEN" PEOPLE, and a whole generation of Israelites died in the wilderness because they didn't believe in God's power to give them the "Promised Land". If All 12 spies came back and reported the same report as Joshua and Caleb, then ALL ISRAEL would have been saved, but because of their unbelief in God's deliverance, that generation over 20 yrs old all died in the wilderness. They "chose" to disbelieve in what God said to them, so instead of saving them and leading them ALL into the "Promised Land, a whole generation perished. So it was because of the "Decision" not to believe in God, that resulted in God rejecting them, and God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. His plan of Salvation NEVER CHANGES. It is the "Choice of accepting or rejecting what God has provided for the remission of sin that determines whether you will be chosen by God to become "Sons of God".

Go back and read some of your own tirades you've posted.......then repent to your god who might and might not decide to forgive you.

Tirades? Any "tirade" I've posted in this thread pales in comparison to the shouting, the invective, the the all-out venom I've seen in your posts. The truth is, you've shown us that you not only don't understand Calvinism, you have many false conceptions about Calvinism. If you want to learn, we'll be glad to explain anything you want to know, but you will need to tone down your posts, and quit hurling accusations and insults. But when you come in here all swaggring and full of bluster and indignation, you make it hard to even want to do so.

As for whether or not God will forgive me, what does the scripture say? "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Believe me, webber, I trust in the promise of that verse every day.

What you are saying then is that predestination isn't REALLY predestination because God knows our "nature" and upon that "nature" he perceives in us He saves us. That "nature" is called "CHOICE".

I think you need to re-read my post 164 because this really mischaracterizes what I said. God predestines a given individual based upon His sovereign choice and for the good pleasure of His will. Based upon that sovereign choice of God, He extends grace to the sinner, changes the sinner's heeart and nature. The first fruit (evidence) of this work is the choice of the sinner to respond to (follow) God. In this the Calvinist denies neither the responsibility of men to obey God nor the observation that the elect have chosen to do so and persist in that choice. The issue is the agent that brought about the choice. We choose Him because He first chose us. It is the height of hubris for man to focus on the fruit (our choice) and think we had any part in the work that brought it about. Let me be as clear as I can possibly be - It is all the work of God. See Eph 2:8-10.

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