Questions about "returning" to Catholicism (Input requested)

August 6, 2003 | self

[visualops]

A brief history to put my questions in context. My parents are Catholic, I was baptized Catholic. In my mid-20's I met and married a Greek Orthodox man. In the process, I converted to Greek Orthodox(old calendar), so we could have a religious wedding (otherwise there would have been no wedding believe me). Anyway fast-forward 10 years later and we got divorced. He obtained a religious divorce as well so he could remarry, which he eventually did. I have also since remarried (a non-Catholic in a civil ceremony only). Now what I'm wanting to know is where I now stand in regards the Catholic Church. Obviouslly I realize going to the local diocese etc etc may/will be in order. I tried googling around but didn't find anything pertaining to my particular situation. I feel as if I don't formally belong anywhere at the moment, and that bothers me on many levels.

[sinkspur]

If that is the case, (and assuming no other impediments) then the marriage would be presumed to be valid...Canon Law states that a sacramental bond exists when both husband and wife are baptized Christians. (Additional requirements for Catholics, such as dispensation from form, etc)

She doesn't say whether she "defected". I'm assuming that she didn't, and that she may have joined the Greek Orthodox Church after she married, in which case the marriage is invalid, in the Catholic Church.

But, you're right. She should contact the tribunal.

[lrslattery]

I had assumed she did defect since she said: "In the process, I converted to Greek Orthodox(old calendar), so we could have a religious wedding (otherwise there would have been no wedding believe me)." So, it seems that, based on that statement, she converted she married - which would normally be viewed as defecting by a formal act (the act of Converting), in which case her marriage would be presumed valid. The tribunal, as you concur, is the best, (and I would say, the only) avenue she should pursue. She can then be at ease with knowing exactly how the Church views her "situation".

[possum]

What you're probably looking for, I believe, is an annulment due to lack of form. Following that, a blessing of your current civil marriage. And then, as others have said, a return to the sacraments.

If you had a dispensation to marry in the Orthodox Church originally, then it's more complicated.

But it sounds like you didn't. If not, you'll need copies of your baptismal certificate, your marriage certificate, and your decree of divorce. Bring them to a priest, and explain the situation. He will send them to the tribunal, and probably charge a small fee. (in my case, it was $25). Annulments of this sort are uncomplicated, because as a Catholic, if you really intended to be married you would have married in the Church. In other words, the paperwork is all the proof they need.

After that, get your current marriage regularized and get back to the sacraments. Welcome home!

[TheStickman]

The present husband will just LOVE that bit of the whole deal. Again, I mean no disrespect to any Catholics by making these comments, but if she is legally/civiliy married I'm gonna bet (assuming they have a happy marriage and are dedicated to one another, of course), *abstaining* from sexual relations is not going to be a positive experience for either of them.

My understaing of Catholicism (sp?)is minimal and I'm not active in any church at present myself. However, I find it incredible to expect or ask a wife or husband to abstain from one of the greatest gifts God has given us in order to *return* to a church, regardless of denomination. Intellectually this *almost* makes sense if the couple in question has been recently married or married for less than a couple of years...almost. But if this couple has been together 5 to 10 years in a faithful, dedicated, loving marriage...I'm sorry, I don't see how God Almighty is going to give a rat's ass except to continue to Bless their union.

Now, if this couple was part of the "I'm on my 4th marriage" club...I might feel differently. However, I don't get that feeling from reading this person's original post. I know as an man in an extremely happy marriage myself I would laugh in the face of someone who suggested my wife and I had to abstain from sexual relations...unless it was a medical situation. Something about *becoming one flesh* together is, IMO HOLY Under God and trumps a ruling by a religious heirarchy run by people who've sworn themselves to a chaste life.

Anyway....just my 2 cents.

[possum]

Judging from the kind of questions they asked during my own "lack of form" annulment, that the kind of apostasy that would be required in order to make someone non-Catholic for these purposes go well beyond what it sounds like happened here. I think it takes more to reverse a baptism than hanging around with schismatics.

[possum]

The present husband will just LOVE that bit of the whole deal.

If her current husband LOVES his wife, and if this is important to her, he should be able to hold off for a few weeks. Sex isn't the most important thing in the world, is it?

[sinkspur]

I believe, is an annulment due to lack of form

It's not an annulment; it's simply a defect of form that can be resolved by submitting a request to the diocese. Annulments involve apparently valid marriages that are determined not to be valid.

[sinkspur]

I'm gonna bet (assuming they have a happy marriage and are dedicated to one another, of course), *abstaining* from sexual relations is not going to be a positive experience for either of them.

For what it's worth, I would never ask them to do that. Just work toward making the marriage valid.

[Aliska]

I find it incredible to expect or ask a wife or husband to abstain from one of the greatest gifts God has given us in order to *return* to a church

If I had the intense faith I used to, I would be willing to abstain from sex rather than abstain from the eucharist, until I got my marriage situation regularized.

Few people are willing to make such a choice, but I don't find it "incredible", unrealistic maybe, but not incredible.

[possum]

It's not an annulment; it's simply a defect of form that can be resolved by submitting a request to the diocese. Annulments involve apparently valid marriages that are determined not to be valid.

Legal marriages are considered apparantly valid by the Church. The Church will annul legal marriages if: 1) they have been legally terminated; and 2) (in short) the parties lacked the intent and capacity to marry. Annulments due to lack of form (or, if you will, defect of form) are no different from other annulments, they are just easier and quicker to prove. The tribunal is still ruling on the the question of whether the parties were not validly married, it's just that all that's needed is proof that one of the parties was Catholic, and that the "marriage" occured outside the Church without any dispensation. If so, the Catholic did not intend a sacramental marriage, and is therefore in the same boat as divorced Catholics whose previous marriages were invalid because they were found to be immature, cousins, forced to marry, etc.

[sinkspur]

I'm impressed with your knowledge.

Still, you've said no more than I have on this thread.

[Saint Athanasius]

But sink,

you are allowing them to commit adultery... that is mortal sin... it is your duty to tell them.

[possum]

Thank you. My knowledge was hard-won.

We can call them annulments or not. It makes no difference. What we are talking about is the Church declaring a previously legal marriage invalid.

[sinkspur]

you are allowing them to commit adultery... that is mortal sin... it is your duty to tell them.

They're going to stop having sex because I tell them to?

As long as they're working toward getting their marriage situation resolved, they can decide what course they want to take.

[possum]

Actually, I shouldn't have said it makes no difference. A Catholic who is currently legally married outside the Church (without dispensation) cannot remarry in the Church without first getting a legal divorce and an annulment.

[sinkspur]

A Catholic who is currently legally married outside the Church (without dispensation) cannot remarry in the Church without first getting a legal divorce and an annulment.

A Catholic who is legally married outside the Church is not validly married. No annulment is required.

[possum]

Is a divorce required?

[possum]

Try this experiment (I assume you are Catholic): Get married to a Baptist woman in a Baptist ceremony without obtaining dispensation. Then get engaged to a Catholic woman. Try to find a Catholic priest who is willing to marry you without seeing your divorce papers and an annulment.

[dsc]

Dear Visual,

Did all that confuse you as much as it did me?

The thing to remember is, it is doable. You CAN get right with the Church again, with your current marriage recognized. But you are going to have to go through some procedures to do that.

It's nothing painful, inordinately time-consuming, or costly, but if you want to receive the Eucharist in good conscience and be fully reconciled with the Church, you need to do it.

When you're ready, just go on down and talk to a priest about it. It'll be okay.

[longtermmemmory]

As a Greek Orthodox (not old calendar) His echlisiastical divorce also covers you too. Did you sign a document consenting to the divorce? (usually you do, unless its been three years)

Th orthodox church recognizes divorce. Its not an anumment but a church approved divorce. (the running rule of thumb and not cannon is 1st too young/inexperienced 2nd rebound and by the 3rd you better get it right) If you want to get married after the third divorce you have to petition for special permission from the pariachy.

You would should contact the Greek Church that approved the Echliasiastical Divorce to obtain the official decree. It should be sufficient for the catholic church. (footnote: the orthodox church is a "catholic" church. Its even in the creed that is recited. Greek and English)