Posted on 07/01/2003 10:22:12 AM PDT by ksen
RECOVERING THE TRUTH & A COMING TO A CORRECT UNDERSTANDING OF JESUS
Jesus and all his followers were Jews who were faithful to Biblical Judaism and never intended to separate from or start a new religion; after their deaths the Gentile Christian church will condemn the Jewish Christians as heretics...in time fruit of the Jewish Church (Gentile Christianity) will destroy it's mother
We have a unique paradox in Biblical history; one which touches every follower of Jesus yet today and which reaches to the very core of our own culture and time. It is impossible to understand Jesus or his message until we come to a correct understanding of the events that fashioned such persecution of the Jews by the Gentile believers and which contributed to the alteration of the faith of Jesus as can be found to have existed in the first century of Second Temple Judaism. As stated earlier the first and greatest division in the early church concerned the relationship of the followers of Jesus to Judaism; it shaped everything that was to follow. One of the greatest problems facing Christianity today is how to reconcile what it has become with G-d's intended vision for the Gentile nations of the world whereby they become part of the Israel of G-d and not "replace" it with a religion of their own creation. The answers for such a problem come only when one personally acquaints himself with an unbiased presentation of the facts of the tragic events of this part of Biblical history and traces the repercussions of such events down through the corridors of history and ultimately seeing the shock waves from them that are present in our own religious beliefs systems and cultures of today.
Today many scholars tell us the truth today about the early church and courageously break from "church traditions" and "mind control" to present the facts concerning these "events" and the corruption of the early faith of the historical Jesus by the Gentile "converts" who would later steer the direction of this "faith" throughout recorded history. It is so simple today to find this information, but sadly few look or even know the need to see if "they be in the faith." That being the case, we accept the "spin" of religious leaders down through history and the real message of Jesus is never heard, or at best, is overlooked for more "orthodox teachings" espoused which have taken it's place. Keith Akers, in his The Lost Religion of Jesus, states the case as well as any. Jewish Christianity consisted of those early Christians who followed the teachings of Jesus, as they understood him, and also remained loyal to the Jewish law of Moses as they understood it. Messianic Judaism was not to replace Judaism with a new faith; it was the goal and zenith for which the prophets wrote and hoped. This simple statement is of profound importance, because the Jewish Christians were eventually rejected both by orthodox Judaism and by orthodox Gentile Christianity. The understanding of the Jewish follower of Jesus was not that of orthodox Christianity (as it came to be where Jesus is seen more like the sun-g-dmen of the Gentile nations than a human messiah). Likewise the Jewish follower of Jesus possessed an understanding of the law of Moses that was the same as orthodox Judaism, but yet this view would later be rejected under the influence of Paul and his churches. Jerome's celebrated comment in the fourth century summarizes this dual rejection: "As long as they seek to be both Jews and Christians, they are neither Jews nor Christians" [Letter 112] (Akers, The Lost Religion of Jesus, p. 7).
The Jewish Christians considered Jesus to be the "true prophet" who would lead the people back to the eternal law that commanded simple living and nonviolence. They saw in Jesus their hopes for physical redemption and the fulfillment of the prophets. It was their hope that the Law would go forth from Zion with Jesus at its head as the long awaited Messiah and King of Israel. It was their hope that the enemies of Israel would be vanquished by the word of this anointed one of the LORD as taught in the Psalms of Solomon (no not the psalms you are familiar with but a separate Jewish books that was recognized by Jews as authoritative in the first century). The law, which was cherished by all G-dfearing Jews, had been given to Moses; indeed, it had existed from the beginning of the world, and was intended to be cherished and observed by both Jew and non-Jew alike because in the Commandments one finds the unique Covenant stipulations of his Covenant before G-d. In sharp contrast with the gentile Christian movement, which emerged in the wake of Paul's teaching, Jewish Christianity strove to make the Jewish law stricter than the Jewish tradition seemed to teach ("you have heard it said but I say unto you...'much more'"). Such was the Jesus' love for G-d and His Word. But this cannot be said for the Gentile churches which strove to find ways to lay aside the law for the laxity that was taught under the disguise of "grace." In other words, the non-Jews loved the large "gray areas" that came from the teaching of Paul and others who negated the Law through their own personal "revelations" and their own personal "gospels" (Paul is found saying in Rom 2:16 16: In the day when G-d shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel and again in 2 Tim 2:8 8: Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel). It is a little early in this article to address this concept but if you study continues you will reach a point in your understanding and knowledge where you will see beyond any doubt that the "gospel of Paul" replaced the "gospel of Jesus and Judaism."
Jewish Christianity is the blind spot in virtually all accounts of Jesus. Everyone agrees that Jesus was a Jew and that his initial followers were Jews. Yet of the thousands of books written about Jesus, almost none acknowledge the central importance of Jewish Christianity; at least until the end of the previous century and the beginning of the present one. That was true up until the latter part of the last century when Jewish, as well as European scholars began to reevaluate the Jewish Jesus and contrast the Historical Jesus with the Christ of Faith. There are many who are eager to focus specifically on the Jewishness of Jesus, until they get to the point of examining those of his followers who, like their teacher, were also Jewish, and in doing so see for themselves that actually nothing really changed within this community of the closest followers of Jesus until the early fourth century when Rome would effectively destroy the Jewish "followers of Jesus" by declaring them official heretics. The power of Rome would propagate a Gentile understanding and not a Jewish understanding of Jesus (see Constantine's Easter letter if you have any doubts).
The "Jewishness" of these early Christians does not refer to their ethnic group or nationality, but rather to their beliefs. Paul was a convert to Judaism (H. Maccoby, The Mythmaker, Paul And The Invention Of Christianity) and only later converted to Judaism; first a Sadducee, and after rejection by the Chief Priest he turned to the Pharisees, again only to be rejected by them for his prior cruelty to them as an agent of the Temple police who routed them out and killed them (the Messianic believing strict branch of the Pharisees called Nazarenes/Essenes). Paul also preaches freedom from the law and therefore explicitly rejects Jewish beliefs. Paul, and some of the other Jews who became Christians, renounced the law of Moses and, therefore, were not part of Jewish Christianity. The churches of Paul today (vast majority of Christianity as it exists today) lay outside the true faith of Jesus and will continue to do so unless they encounter the truth about this man of Galilee and the truth about their own religious history.
Without understanding Jewish Messianic Judaism or "intended Christianity", we cannot understand the historical Jesus let alone the earliest church nor the corruption of it within the New Testament correctly. Lacking this knowledge we are doomed to misinterpret most of what we read in the New Testament and our worship let alone our conduct will be in error...much of which is defined as sin in the Torah.
You are tossing together tradition and scripture. The trinity is an eternal truth , taught even in the OT .
Actually I know that Yeshua is the Son of God. Jesus is your anti-Messiah god. You worship the created instead of the Creator. That is the delusion in the world.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
This scripture describes you well. You have been wandering around looking for a religion that would satisfy you , not the truth .
Truth? You can't handle the truth. lol.
I agree with Kevin. Today it is this and tomorrow it will be something else.
I pray that YHWH will never cease opening my eyes.
I do not say that to you to be unkind,
You wouldn't know what the word "kind" means.
I would like you to consider the source of the book you read and then consider the scholarship of the men in the church councils that decried those heresies.The Shema proves the trinity to one that has open eyes
I would advise you to become more familiar with "Shema", "Elohim", & "Echad". As a matter of fact I think I'll just go ahead and post the article for your enlightenment.
http://www.torahofmessiah.com/elohim.html
Ooh Ooh, I know! Pick me, pick me!
(Course, everyone won't be happy with the answer. LOL)
SD
Sorry your wrong. Its a truth read retroactively back into scripture. Read that article.
Ok. I select you. Go for it. :-)
And more to the point -
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
What was "the word" they received? From whom? What did they do with it, once they'd searched the scriptures (and found it was "so", or "no so")?
The contents of the New Testament, more specifically the Gospels and some (all?) of the successive letters would have been that "word". They survive, in so many accurately transmitted manuscripts, because the Bereans - and those like them - did as the Scriptures say. They searched the scriptures. I believe this is what Ignorant refers to (badly mispelled) as the Tenhak (it should be spelled Tanakh).
They found them so. The texts survived, were copied faithfully, and only later assembled into a single canon. But they were held as scripture, since they came from first-hand witnesses to the Resurrection and were in agreement with the Written Law, long before then.
I've been called a lot of things, but from an apostate and a heretic, this is new! :^)
The message of the Gospel. From Paul and Silas. Do you think they were traveling with scrolls? Lol.
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Please. Catholics will even tell you that not all the words in these Gospels are attributed to the authors.
You can believe or disbelieve, because I do not answer to you, I answer to Him. You will never change my life the way He has. As a Gentile, I'm not under the Law, nor will I be, unless I want to make the work of Jesus of no effect in my life. In Him I have forgiveness of sins, and Life Everlasting. Can you say the same for your beliefs?
Sure, if you listen to the Modernist/Liberal Bible "scholars."
The fathers of the Church disagree with you. But that should be another thread.
Irenaeus
"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:2).
"Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time" (ibid., 3:3:4).
"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question?" (ibid., 3:4:1).
"[I]t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth" (ibid., 4:26:2).
"The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere" (ibid., 4:33:8).
Or it is of Christain origin intended to be viewed by Jews and they do not want to offend.
I can tell you're a Calvinist. They the most loving ones. All in the name of compassion. Lol.
It matters little to me what you think of me or my opinions, and I'm sure the reverse is true as well. What matters to me is Truth. That is what I pursue, and I have found Truth to be a person: Jesus Christ, the Risen Son of God, the Messiah of Israel.
Wow. Go figure. I've found the same truth.
You can believe or disbelieve, because I do not answer to you, I answer to Him.
Don't flatter yourself. Nobody asked you to answer to me.
You will never change my life the way He has. As a Gentile, I'm not under the Law, nor will I be, unless I want to make the work of Jesus of no effect in my life.
Are you nervous or something? I never claimed I could change your life.
In Him I have forgiveness of sins, and Life Everlasting. Can you say the same for your beliefs?
Yes.
Let's wait and see if any Protestant has a good answer first.
SD
If you are fishing for a particular answer, I'm not sure that I can give you the one you want. We have endlessly debated the canonicity of NT scripture on FR, and much of it comes down to whether or not we accept that the Holy Spirit guides our discernment of the written word.
Speaking as one who has read a large amount of non-canonical scripture, I will state that the bulk of it is quite obviously spurious. One of the hallmarks of uninspired scripture is a lack of docrinal diversity. There are the various Syraic documents, including the Acts of Peter, all of which stress sexual chastity as the primary agent of salvation. Also, there are the maricentric "infancy" gospels, which stress marian doctrine at the expense of all else. The accounts are generally crude and out-of-character, for example Jesus miraculously killing his playmates and harming his teacher in Infancy Thomas or Peter advising a young convert to castrate himself in Acts of Peter. Further examples of absurdity are too numerous to mention, but include "holy power" threatening to fly forth from the mouth of Mary and incinerate the earth in the Gospel of Bartholomew, stopped only by the desperate prayers of the twelve disciples. Afterwards, they walk across the desert and pay a visit to Satan, who has a convivial chat with them before showing them the abyss. Compared to these gems, the Apocrypha seem almost genuine.
I suspect Ignorant's version of "Torah" is the one that contains both the written and the oral laws. The latter, of course, is by definition extra-scriptural material, held by some Jewish sects as being equal (or greater) in weight to the Law of Moses itself.
I would suspect that Oral Law is the Babylonian Talmud. It's such a huge volume of writing that it's impossible for Ignorant to have any good handle on what it contains, after so short a time from his conversion to this new belief system. One does not stumble into the Talmud or the Torah accidentally. Some rabbis, in fact, prohibit gentiles from reading it. Rabbis Johanon (first century BC) and Moises Maimonides (12th century AD) both taught that a gentile who studies the Torah is deserving of death. Yet Ignorant is appealing to it, after so short a time.
And thus, I conclude there is a master behind this apprentice. I wonder who that master is? BigMack, do you have any ideas?
Yes you have a great mystery that 2000 years of scholarship have failed to address
Steve I do not much care if you call me names.
Your blasphmy above speaks volumns of the condition of your soul.
If the Shema had intended to express absolute oneness, it would have used the Hebrew word yachid instead of echad. However, the word yachid is never used in reference to God (Elohim)!
The Hebrew word translated "God" is the word El or Elohim. Elohim is the plural form of El. The plural form is used 2607 of the 2845 times the word "God" is used in the Old Testament. An example of how the Hebrew word Elohim is used in the plural is that it is translated "gods" (referring to idols) 235 times in the Old Testament. It is exactly the same word that is translated "God," referring to the Almighty. An example is given below:
· "I am the LORD your God [Elohim], who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. "You shall have no other gods [Elohim] before Me. (Exodus 20:2-3)
Not only is word for God usually used in the plural form, but also several verses refer to God as "Us":
* Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." (Genesis 1:26) *
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- (Genesis 3:22) *
"Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." (Genesis 11:7) *
Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit. And the Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. (Isaiah 11:1-2) *
"Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. (Isaiah 42:1) *
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives, And freedom to prisoners; (Isaiah 61:1) *
In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the angel of His presence saved them; In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them; And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them. (Isaiah 63:9-10)
Some of the verses above include all members of the Triunity (Isaiah 42:1, Isaiah 48:16, and Isaiah 61:1). Therefore, the Old Testament does reveal the Christian concept of the Godhead, with God being one God, consisting of three persons. How can God simultaneously exist as both singular and plural? It is a logical impossibility if God were restricted to the three dimensions of space and one dimension of time of our physical universe. My thinking is like this as a human being our life and thinking are all finite. And we cannot under stand any ting infinite. Mathematics just says infinite is some thing we cannot understand and don’t try to fathom it. Any thing in our intelligence is space (height, length, and breadth. These are called three dimensions. Any thing in more than 3 dimensions is difficult for ordinary human to understand.
From Rom 9:5 it is clearly said that Jesus is God in “ Christ appeared in the flesh who is God over all“.
In John 1:1-3 “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and Word was God”. But we know that Word was Jesus. And we are also told in John 1;14 “And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us”. In John 6:27 “ work for the food … that endures for eternal life which Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father God has set his seal.”
In Colo 2:9 we are told that “For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” ( yes Godhead in fullness reside in Jesus)
1 John 5;20 “And we are in the one who is true, his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life”
Hebrew 1:8,9 “therefore God, your God, anointed you with oil of gladness above your companions”
http://www.stignatious.com/articles/trinity.htm
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.