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RECOVERING THE TRUTH & A COMING TO A CORRECT UNDERSTANDING OF JESUS
Bet Emet Ministries ^ | Unknown | Craig Lyons

Posted on 07/01/2003 10:22:12 AM PDT by ksen

RECOVERING THE TRUTH & A COMING TO A CORRECT UNDERSTANDING OF JESUS

Jesus and all his followers were Jews who were faithful to Biblical Judaism and never intended to separate from or start a new religion; after their deaths the Gentile Christian church will condemn the Jewish Christians as heretics...in time fruit of the Jewish Church (Gentile Christianity) will destroy it's mother

We have a unique paradox in Biblical history; one which touches every follower of Jesus yet today and which reaches to the very core of our own culture and time. It is impossible to understand Jesus or his message until we come to a correct understanding of the events that fashioned such persecution of the Jews by the Gentile believers and which contributed to the alteration of the faith of Jesus as can be found to have existed in the first century of Second Temple Judaism. As stated earlier the first and greatest division in the early church concerned the relationship of the followers of Jesus to Judaism; it shaped everything that was to follow. One of the greatest problems facing Christianity today is how to reconcile what it has become with G-d's intended vision for the Gentile nations of the world whereby they become part of the Israel of G-d and not "replace" it with a religion of their own creation. The answers for such a problem come only when one personally acquaints himself with an unbiased presentation of the facts of the tragic events of this part of Biblical history and traces the repercussions of such events down through the corridors of history and ultimately seeing the shock waves from them that are present in our own religious beliefs systems and cultures of today.

Today many scholars tell us the truth today about the early church and courageously break from "church traditions" and "mind control" to present the facts concerning these "events" and the corruption of the early faith of the historical Jesus by the Gentile "converts" who would later steer the direction of this "faith" throughout recorded history. It is so simple today to find this information, but sadly few look or even know the need to see if "they be in the faith." That being the case, we accept the "spin" of religious leaders down through history and the real message of Jesus is never heard, or at best, is overlooked for more "orthodox teachings" espoused which have taken it's place. Keith Akers, in his The Lost Religion of Jesus, states the case as well as any. Jewish Christianity consisted of those early Christians who followed the teachings of Jesus, as they understood him, and also remained loyal to the Jewish law of Moses as they understood it. Messianic Judaism was not to replace Judaism with a new faith; it was the goal and zenith for which the prophets wrote and hoped. This simple statement is of profound importance, because the Jewish Christians were eventually rejected both by orthodox Judaism and by orthodox Gentile Christianity. The understanding of the Jewish follower of Jesus was not that of orthodox Christianity (as it came to be where Jesus is seen more like the sun-g-dmen of the Gentile nations than a human messiah). Likewise the Jewish follower of Jesus possessed an understanding of the law of Moses that was the same as orthodox Judaism, but yet this view would later be rejected under the influence of Paul and his churches. Jerome's celebrated comment in the fourth century summarizes this dual rejection: "As long as they seek to be both Jews and Christians, they are neither Jews nor Christians" [Letter 112] (Akers, The Lost Religion of Jesus, p. 7).

The Jewish Christians considered Jesus to be the "true prophet" who would lead the people back to the eternal law that commanded simple living and nonviolence. They saw in Jesus their hopes for physical redemption and the fulfillment of the prophets. It was their hope that the Law would go forth from Zion with Jesus at its head as the long awaited Messiah and King of Israel. It was their hope that the enemies of Israel would be vanquished by the word of this anointed one of the LORD as taught in the Psalms of Solomon (no not the psalms you are familiar with but a separate Jewish books that was recognized by Jews as authoritative in the first century). The law, which was cherished by all G-dfearing Jews, had been given to Moses; indeed, it had existed from the beginning of the world, and was intended to be cherished and observed by both Jew and non-Jew alike because in the Commandments one finds the unique Covenant stipulations of his Covenant before G-d. In sharp contrast with the gentile Christian movement, which emerged in the wake of Paul's teaching, Jewish Christianity strove to make the Jewish law stricter than the Jewish tradition seemed to teach ("you have heard it said but I say unto you...'much more'"). Such was the Jesus' love for G-d and His Word. But this cannot be said for the Gentile churches which strove to find ways to lay aside the law for the laxity that was taught under the disguise of "grace." In other words, the non-Jews loved the large "gray areas" that came from the teaching of Paul and others who negated the Law through their own personal "revelations" and their own personal "gospels" (Paul is found saying in Rom 2:16 16: In the day when G-d shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel and again in 2 Tim 2:8 8: Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel). It is a little early in this article to address this concept but if you study continues you will reach a point in your understanding and knowledge where you will see beyond any doubt that the "gospel of Paul" replaced the "gospel of Jesus and Judaism."

Jewish Christianity is the blind spot in virtually all accounts of Jesus. Everyone agrees that Jesus was a Jew and that his initial followers were Jews. Yet of the thousands of books written about Jesus, almost none acknowledge the central importance of Jewish Christianity; at least until the end of the previous century and the beginning of the present one. That was true up until the latter part of the last century when Jewish, as well as European scholars began to reevaluate the Jewish Jesus and contrast the Historical Jesus with the Christ of Faith. There are many who are eager to focus specifically on the Jewishness of Jesus, until they get to the point of examining those of his followers who, like their teacher, were also Jewish, and in doing so see for themselves that actually nothing really changed within this community of the closest followers of Jesus until the early fourth century when Rome would effectively destroy the Jewish "followers of Jesus" by declaring them official heretics. The power of Rome would propagate a Gentile understanding and not a Jewish understanding of Jesus (see Constantine's Easter letter if you have any doubts).

The "Jewishness" of these early Christians does not refer to their ethnic group or nationality, but rather to their beliefs. Paul was a convert to Judaism (H. Maccoby, The Mythmaker, Paul And The Invention Of Christianity) and only later converted to Judaism; first a Sadducee, and after rejection by the Chief Priest he turned to the Pharisees, again only to be rejected by them for his prior cruelty to them as an agent of the Temple police who routed them out and killed them (the Messianic believing strict branch of the Pharisees called Nazarenes/Essenes). Paul also preaches freedom from the law and therefore explicitly rejects Jewish beliefs. Paul, and some of the other Jews who became Christians, renounced the law of Moses and, therefore, were not part of Jewish Christianity. The churches of Paul today (vast majority of Christianity as it exists today) lay outside the true faith of Jesus and will continue to do so unless they encounter the truth about this man of Galilee and the truth about their own religious history.

Without understanding Jewish Messianic Judaism or "intended Christianity", we cannot understand the historical Jesus let alone the earliest church nor the corruption of it within the New Testament correctly. Lacking this knowledge we are doomed to misinterpret most of what we read in the New Testament and our worship let alone our conduct will be in error...much of which is defined as sin in the Torah.


TOPICS: Apologetics; General Discusssion; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS:
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To: All
So, what's the back story on all this?
481 posted on 07/02/2003 6:00:39 PM PDT by A.J.Armitage (Christ died for the ungodly.)
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To: ET(end tyranny)
These verse show Yahweh to be equal and balanced in how He does things. Each person is responsible for their own soul and its eternal life/salvation. They also show that just because one was righteous doesn't mean that person cannot fall away again into unrighteousness. They can. All that is necessary is to repent with a contrite heart and get back on Yahweh's path again.

There is only one Jesus that saves. And he looses none that His Father gives to Him

482 posted on 07/02/2003 6:06:56 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: JesseShurun
since they were in effect anyway, wonder what he thinks Jesus came to do? read them to us?

Mark 10
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Mark 12
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Luke 1
5 THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Luke 18
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

John 14
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Acts 1:2
Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

John 1:2
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Deuteronomy 8:6
Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.

Isaiah 51:7
Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
[** Shows the connection between righteousness and the law.**]

Matthew 5:10
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 25
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 5
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

John 7
49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Acts 21 (James talking to Paul)
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
[**This nearly 30 years after the crucifixtion**]

Deuteronomy 12
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Proverbs 12
28 In the way of righteousness is life: and in the pathway thereof there is no death.

Ecclesiastes 12
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

These are just a small gathering of verses pertaining to keeping the law/commandments. Obviously they are important and Yeshua himself reminds us of their importance in obtaining eternal life. Just as Yahweh has repeatedly pointed out Himself.

At the time, they were living in lawlessness, so yes, while Yeshua came to preach repentence, it would only be natural for him to also remind people of the law.

483 posted on 07/02/2003 6:23:34 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) ( Luke 16:17 -- And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.)
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To: RnMomof7
Who are these heretics and what was I I before he apostasized?
484 posted on 07/02/2003 6:26:51 PM PDT by A.J.Armitage (Christ died for the ungodly.)
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To: A.J.Armitage
Who knows?? The flavor of the month religion.. Messianic Jewish for 2 years..before that who knows ( He was not Jewish..he just liked the law keeping)

He is no longer a Christian but he is not Jewish either..very close to JW now )

485 posted on 07/02/2003 6:32:44 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: restornu
There can be many sons, yet there is only one begotten Son in God family!

And how many Gods are there. Can man become a god?

486 posted on 07/02/2003 6:37:23 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) ( Luke 16:17 -- And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.)
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Wow! A lot posts have been removed. Whose and why?
487 posted on 07/02/2003 6:40:08 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) ( Luke 16:17 -- And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.)
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To: RnMomof7
mine: Can't speak for Invincible, but to me, Yeshua was an agent or representative of Yahweh. He was the Messiah come to preach repentence and get Israel back from it's lawless state.

yours: Oh I suspect you have put alot of words in his mouth

I asked about this earlier (this morning?), and haven't seen a reply as of a few hours ago, but I also have been re-reading the thread, so its possible you have replied and I just haven't seen the lastest posts, (if so disregard)

488 posted on 07/02/2003 6:49:39 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) ( Luke 16:17 -- And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.)
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To: RnMomof7
So he already had as much difficulty with Galatians, Hebrews, and so on as he does with John 1.

There seem to be more of these people than just him. Is there an organized cult, or just websites, or what?
489 posted on 07/02/2003 6:50:22 PM PDT by A.J.Armitage (Christ died for the ungodly.)
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To: thirdheavenward
Damage to James constitutes the sole collateral damage under my bid to objectively justify the bulk of New Testament Scripture. It is a price I am willing to pay to make the remainder solid. I have tried to explain this better in my other posts.

If you accept the entire NT as being divinely inspired, then it must be that Yahweh wanted James included.

What I'd like to know is why the authors of the writings in the NT found it more important to tell us who replaced Judas, than to tell us that James was the leader of the Jerusalem Church after the crucifixtion. We glean this by reading Acts. Where James clearly makes the final directive. We can also learn this by reading the writings of Eusebius who quotes Clement as well in verifying this information. It's pretty important information to just LEAVE out. Many do not even realize that James was in charge and erroneously think it is was Peter.

I have to wonder if perhaps certain items were 'removed' by those wishing to promote the superiority of Peter. It just seems to me that Yahweh would have wanted us to know who was in charge. Instead, we have to read Acts with a magnifying glass to see it! And what a find it is, though its importantance is lost on many.

Yet, James, the very leader is the one you want to toss out. Go figure! lol I think its divine providence that his book remains. His book is also one of the oldest.

490 posted on 07/02/2003 7:11:19 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) ( Luke 16:17 -- And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.)
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To: irishtenor; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; drstevej; SoothingDave; Alex Murphy; RnMomof7; CCWoody; Wrigley; ..
He is right, ya know. He is IGNORANT!!!


491 posted on 07/02/2003 7:11:35 PM PDT by Gamecock ( Swarming Calvinist)
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To: thirdheavenward
I trust that the church has correctly attributed these works to the correct authors, from the earliest times to the present day. Moreover, skeptical researchers have tried very hard to debunk them, and have failed.

What do you think of Bishop Papias?

492 posted on 07/02/2003 7:13:33 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) ( Luke 16:17 -- And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.)
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To: Gamecock
Iggy is on holiday...

This account has been banned or suspended.
493 posted on 07/02/2003 7:42:36 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: A.J.Armitage
Who are these heretics and what was I I before he apostasized?

Actually Invicible didn't apostasize. He went back to where he belonged all along.

The following will help to put apostasy/iniquity/backsliding/righteousness into persepctive.

Jeremiah 3
6   The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
7   And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
8   And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
9   And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

backsliding from the Hebrew
4878
mshuwbah mesh-oo-baw' or mshubah {mesh-oo-baw'}; from 7725; apostasy:--backsliding, turning away.
1)
turning away, turning back, apostasy, backsliding

harlot from the Hebrew
2181 zanah zaw-naw' a primitive root (highly-fed and therefore wanton); to commit adultery (usually of the female, and less often of simple fornication, rarely of involuntary ravishment); figuratively, to commit idolatry (the Jewish people being regarded as the spouse of Jehovah):--(cause to) commit fornication, X continually, X great, (be an, play the) harlot, (cause to be, play the) whore, (commit, fall to) whoredom, (cause to) go a-whoring, whorish.
1)
to commit fornication, be a harlot, play the harlot
a) (Qal)
1) to be a harlot, act as a harlot, commit fornication
2) to commit adultery
3) to be a cult prostitute
4) to be unfaithful (to God) (fig.)
b) (Pual) to play the harlot
c) (Hiphil)
1) to cause to commit adultery
2) to force into prostitution
3)
to commit fornication


bill of divorce from the Hebrew
3748 kriythuwth ker-ee-thooth' from 3772; a cutting (of the matrimonial bond), i.e. divorce:--divorce(-ment).
1)
divorce, dismissal, divorcement


But, they get restored in Hosea 3
3   And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.
4   For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5   Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.


2 Thessalonians 2
3   Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


apostasy from the Greek
647
apostasion ap-os-tas'-ee-on neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of 868; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce:--(writing of) divorcement.
1)
divorce, repudiation
2)
a bill of divorce

646 apostasia ap-os-tas-ee'-ah feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):--falling away, forsake.
1)
a falling away, defection, apostasy


2 Thessalonians 2
3   Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4   Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

7   For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


iniquity from the Greek
458
anomia an-om-ee'-ah from 459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:--iniquity, X transgress(-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.
1)
the condition of without law
a)
because ignorant of it
b)
because of violating it
2)
contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness


2 Thessalonians 2
10   And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11   And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12   That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


unrighteousness from the Greek
93
adikia ad-ee-kee'-ah from 94; (legal) injustice (properly, the quality, by implication, the act); morally, wrongfulness (of character, life or act):--iniquity, unjust, unrighteousness, wrong.
1)
injustice, of a judge
2)
unrighteousness of heart and life
3)
a deed violating law and justice, act of unrighteousness


2 Thessalonians 2
15   Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

traditions from the Greek
3862
paradosis par-ad'-os-is from 3860; transmission, i.e. (concretely) a precept; specially, the Jewish traditionary law:--ordinance, tradition.
1)
giving up, giving over
a)
the act of giving up
b)
the surrender of cities
2)
a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc.
a)
objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching
b)
of the body of precepts, esp. ritual, which in the opinion of the later Jews were orally delivered by Moses and orally transmitted in unbroken succession to subsequent generations, which precepts, both illustrating and expanding the written law, as they did were to be obeyed with equal reverence


1 Corinthians 10
1   Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2   And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3   And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4   And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5   But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6   Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7   Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8   Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9   Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10   Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11   Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12   Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
13   There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
14   Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.


fornication from the Greek
4203 porneuo porn-yoo'-o from 4204; to act the harlot, i.e. (literally) indulge unlawful lust (of either sex), or (figuratively) practise idolatry:--commit (fornication).
1)
to prostitute one's body to the lust of another
2)
to give one's self to unlawful sexual intercourse
a)
to commit fornication
3)
metaph. to be given to idolatry, to worship idols
a)
to permit one's self to be drawn away by another into idolatry


4204 porne por'-nay feminine of 4205; a strumpet; figuratively, an idolater:--harlot, whore.
1)
a woman who sells her body for sexual uses
a)
a prostitute, a harlot, one who yields herself to defilement for the sake of gain
b)
any woman indulging in unlawful sexual intercourse, whether for gain or for lust
2)
metaph. an idolatress
a)
of "Babylon" i.e. Rome, the chief seat of idolatry



Revelation 17
5   And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

The 'mother' church from whence the others came.  Backsliding, apostate, falling away from the LAW.  Look at the messages given to the 'churches' in Revelation.  They are admonished and told to REPENT!

Revelation 18
4   And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5   For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

iniquity from the Greek
458
anomia an-om-ee'-ah from 459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:--iniquity, X transgress(-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.
1)
the condition of without law
a)
because ignorant of it
b)
because of violating it
2)
contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

494 posted on 07/02/2003 8:07:39 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) ( Luke 16:17 -- And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.)
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To: drstevej
Pity ;-)

Help me out, is he a J. Witness?
495 posted on 07/02/2003 8:14:51 PM PDT by Gamecock ( Swarming Calvinist)
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To: ET(end tyranny)
Hokey smokes, ET. That's about seven pages of material you just posted there. Any way you can break it up or be succinct with it next time?

So, which traditions didn't the believers in 1 Thess. keep? If I'm reading your "red text" comments correctly, it's the rabbinical oral traditions (Talmud), correct?

496 posted on 07/02/2003 8:24:42 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Athanasius contra mundum!)
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To: ET(end tyranny)

Gnashing is anti social!
497 posted on 07/02/2003 8:33:31 PM PDT by restornu
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To: drstevej
Is it idolatry to woship Jesus?

Do people gaze upon graven images of a crucified Jesus, particularly when they partake of the eucharist perhaps?

Leviticus 17:10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people. (This verse gets cross referenced with:

Ezekiel 33:25 Wherefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Ye eat with the blood, and lift up your eyes toward your idols, and shed blood: and shall ye possess the land?

The eating/drinking of blood is connected to heathens and idolatry.

We are even reminded in Acts to abstain from blood.

Acts 15
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

I remember taking communion, and as I opened my mouth to receive the host, there before me, as I raised my eyes, elevated upon the back wall was the crucified Christ. *shudder* do not make for yourselves graven images..... IDOLATRY and topped off with eating/drinking blood! For catholics believe that during the eucharist, the bread and wine turn into the literal, physical body and blood of Christ.

The ironic part is that while sacrifices have stopped in the Jewish Temple, the sacrfices continue in Christian churches, every eucharistic meal.

I think the 'breaking of bread' that Jesus spoke of, was to be a fellowship and remembrance, not a continuous reinactment of the crucifixtion. I was under the impression that Christ was supposed to be the last sacrifice, though Yahweh didn't desire sacrifices. Yet, Jesus gets sacrficed over and over again with each eucharistic meal.

God doesn't want 'human' sacrifices. That's why God, in Genesis 22, replaces Isaac with a Ram! What more 'visual' do you need? God wanted to see if Abraham would 'obey'. When God knew that Abraham meant to follow through and sacrifice his only son, God called out to Abraham, and stopped him. Then God brought forth a Ram, to be sacrificed.

Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 12
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Isaiah 1:11
To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

Psalm 51
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart
, O God, thou wilt not despise.

1 Samuel 15:22
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Hosea 6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Psalm 40
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Throughout the Jewish scriptures, the prophets declared that repentance and charity are more pleasing to God for atonement than a blood sacrifice.

Hosea 3
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Hosea 14
2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

Sacrifices were to be replaced with PRAYER!

God tells us that he doesn't want sacrifice, Jesus tells us that he doesn't want sacrifice

Yet Jesus becomes a 'sacrfice'? Did God lie?

God wanted us to understand and obey Him, and when we fell, to repent with a contrite heart and get back on the path of obedience to Him.

Isaiah 42
17 They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods.

graven images from the Hebrew
6456 pciyl pes-eel' from 6458; an idol:--carved (graven) image, quarry.
1) image, idol, graven image

6458 pacal paw-sal' a primitive root; to carve, whether wood or stone:--grave, hew.
1) to cut, hew, hew into shape
a) (Qal) to hew, hew out, quarry

molten images from the Hebrew
4541 maccekah mas-say-kaw' from 5258; properly, a pouring over, i.e. fusion of metal (especially a cast image); by implication, a libation, i.e. league; concretely a coverlet (as if poured out):--covering, molten (image), vail.
1) a pouring, libation, molten metal, cast image, drink offering
a) libation (with covenant sacrifice)
b) molten metal, molten image, molten gods 2) web, covering, veil, woven stuff

Exodus 34:17
Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

Isaiah 41:29
Behold, they are all vanity; their works are nothing: their molten images are wind and confusion.

Leviticus 19:4
Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.

498 posted on 07/02/2003 8:59:26 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) ( Luke 16:17 -- And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.)
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To: ET(end tyranny)
Your answer is non responsive to my question.

I unashamedly worship Jesus (and I am not speaking of the RC doctrine of the Real Presence, because I am a rapid Protestant).

QUESTION: Do you consider me an idolater for worshipping Jesus?

YES or NO?
499 posted on 07/02/2003 9:05:16 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: ET(end tyranny)
Correction:

***I unashamedly worship Jesus (and I am not speaking of the RC doctrine of the Real Presence, because I am a RABID Protestant). ***
500 posted on 07/02/2003 9:21:56 PM PDT by drstevej
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