Posted on 07/01/2003 10:22:12 AM PDT by ksen
You are tossing together tradition and scripture. The trinity is an eternal truth , taught even in the OT .
Actually I know that Yeshua is the Son of God. Jesus is your anti-Messiah god. You worship the created instead of the Creator. That is the delusion in the world.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
This scripture describes you well. You have been wandering around looking for a religion that would satisfy you , not the truth .
Truth? You can't handle the truth. lol.
I agree with Kevin. Today it is this and tomorrow it will be something else.
I pray that YHWH will never cease opening my eyes.
I do not say that to you to be unkind,
You wouldn't know what the word "kind" means.
I would like you to consider the source of the book you read and then consider the scholarship of the men in the church councils that decried those heresies.The Shema proves the trinity to one that has open eyes
I would advise you to become more familiar with "Shema", "Elohim", & "Echad". As a matter of fact I think I'll just go ahead and post the article for your enlightenment.
http://www.torahofmessiah.com/elohim.html
Ooh Ooh, I know! Pick me, pick me!
(Course, everyone won't be happy with the answer. LOL)
SD
Sorry your wrong. Its a truth read retroactively back into scripture. Read that article.
Ok. I select you. Go for it. :-)
And more to the point -
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
What was "the word" they received? From whom? What did they do with it, once they'd searched the scriptures (and found it was "so", or "no so")?
The contents of the New Testament, more specifically the Gospels and some (all?) of the successive letters would have been that "word". They survive, in so many accurately transmitted manuscripts, because the Bereans - and those like them - did as the Scriptures say. They searched the scriptures. I believe this is what Ignorant refers to (badly mispelled) as the Tenhak (it should be spelled Tanakh).
They found them so. The texts survived, were copied faithfully, and only later assembled into a single canon. But they were held as scripture, since they came from first-hand witnesses to the Resurrection and were in agreement with the Written Law, long before then.
I've been called a lot of things, but from an apostate and a heretic, this is new! :^)
The message of the Gospel. From Paul and Silas. Do you think they were traveling with scrolls? Lol.
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Please. Catholics will even tell you that not all the words in these Gospels are attributed to the authors.
You can believe or disbelieve, because I do not answer to you, I answer to Him. You will never change my life the way He has. As a Gentile, I'm not under the Law, nor will I be, unless I want to make the work of Jesus of no effect in my life. In Him I have forgiveness of sins, and Life Everlasting. Can you say the same for your beliefs?
Sure, if you listen to the Modernist/Liberal Bible "scholars."
The fathers of the Church disagree with you. But that should be another thread.
Irenaeus
"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:2).
"Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time" (ibid., 3:3:4).
"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question?" (ibid., 3:4:1).
"[I]t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth" (ibid., 4:26:2).
"The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere" (ibid., 4:33:8).
Or it is of Christain origin intended to be viewed by Jews and they do not want to offend.
I can tell you're a Calvinist. They the most loving ones. All in the name of compassion. Lol.
It matters little to me what you think of me or my opinions, and I'm sure the reverse is true as well. What matters to me is Truth. That is what I pursue, and I have found Truth to be a person: Jesus Christ, the Risen Son of God, the Messiah of Israel.
Wow. Go figure. I've found the same truth.
You can believe or disbelieve, because I do not answer to you, I answer to Him.
Don't flatter yourself. Nobody asked you to answer to me.
You will never change my life the way He has. As a Gentile, I'm not under the Law, nor will I be, unless I want to make the work of Jesus of no effect in my life.
Are you nervous or something? I never claimed I could change your life.
In Him I have forgiveness of sins, and Life Everlasting. Can you say the same for your beliefs?
Yes.
Let's wait and see if any Protestant has a good answer first.
SD
If you are fishing for a particular answer, I'm not sure that I can give you the one you want. We have endlessly debated the canonicity of NT scripture on FR, and much of it comes down to whether or not we accept that the Holy Spirit guides our discernment of the written word.
Speaking as one who has read a large amount of non-canonical scripture, I will state that the bulk of it is quite obviously spurious. One of the hallmarks of uninspired scripture is a lack of docrinal diversity. There are the various Syraic documents, including the Acts of Peter, all of which stress sexual chastity as the primary agent of salvation. Also, there are the maricentric "infancy" gospels, which stress marian doctrine at the expense of all else. The accounts are generally crude and out-of-character, for example Jesus miraculously killing his playmates and harming his teacher in Infancy Thomas or Peter advising a young convert to castrate himself in Acts of Peter. Further examples of absurdity are too numerous to mention, but include "holy power" threatening to fly forth from the mouth of Mary and incinerate the earth in the Gospel of Bartholomew, stopped only by the desperate prayers of the twelve disciples. Afterwards, they walk across the desert and pay a visit to Satan, who has a convivial chat with them before showing them the abyss. Compared to these gems, the Apocrypha seem almost genuine.
I suspect Ignorant's version of "Torah" is the one that contains both the written and the oral laws. The latter, of course, is by definition extra-scriptural material, held by some Jewish sects as being equal (or greater) in weight to the Law of Moses itself.
I would suspect that Oral Law is the Babylonian Talmud. It's such a huge volume of writing that it's impossible for Ignorant to have any good handle on what it contains, after so short a time from his conversion to this new belief system. One does not stumble into the Talmud or the Torah accidentally. Some rabbis, in fact, prohibit gentiles from reading it. Rabbis Johanon (first century BC) and Moises Maimonides (12th century AD) both taught that a gentile who studies the Torah is deserving of death. Yet Ignorant is appealing to it, after so short a time.
And thus, I conclude there is a master behind this apprentice. I wonder who that master is? BigMack, do you have any ideas?
Yes you have a great mystery that 2000 years of scholarship have failed to address
Steve I do not much care if you call me names.
Your blasphmy above speaks volumns of the condition of your soul.
If the Shema had intended to express absolute oneness, it would have used the Hebrew word yachid instead of echad. However, the word yachid is never used in reference to God (Elohim)!
The Hebrew word translated "God" is the word El or Elohim. Elohim is the plural form of El. The plural form is used 2607 of the 2845 times the word "God" is used in the Old Testament. An example of how the Hebrew word Elohim is used in the plural is that it is translated "gods" (referring to idols) 235 times in the Old Testament. It is exactly the same word that is translated "God," referring to the Almighty. An example is given below:
· "I am the LORD your God [Elohim], who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. "You shall have no other gods [Elohim] before Me. (Exodus 20:2-3)
Not only is word for God usually used in the plural form, but also several verses refer to God as "Us":
* Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." (Genesis 1:26) *
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- (Genesis 3:22) *
"Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." (Genesis 11:7) *
Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit. And the Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. (Isaiah 11:1-2) *
"Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. (Isaiah 42:1) *
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives, And freedom to prisoners; (Isaiah 61:1) *
In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the angel of His presence saved them; In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them; And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them. (Isaiah 63:9-10)
Some of the verses above include all members of the Triunity (Isaiah 42:1, Isaiah 48:16, and Isaiah 61:1). Therefore, the Old Testament does reveal the Christian concept of the Godhead, with God being one God, consisting of three persons. How can God simultaneously exist as both singular and plural? It is a logical impossibility if God were restricted to the three dimensions of space and one dimension of time of our physical universe. My thinking is like this as a human being our life and thinking are all finite. And we cannot under stand any ting infinite. Mathematics just says infinite is some thing we cannot understand and don’t try to fathom it. Any thing in our intelligence is space (height, length, and breadth. These are called three dimensions. Any thing in more than 3 dimensions is difficult for ordinary human to understand.
From Rom 9:5 it is clearly said that Jesus is God in “ Christ appeared in the flesh who is God over all“.
In John 1:1-3 “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and Word was God”. But we know that Word was Jesus. And we are also told in John 1;14 “And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us”. In John 6:27 “ work for the food … that endures for eternal life which Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father God has set his seal.”
In Colo 2:9 we are told that “For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” ( yes Godhead in fullness reside in Jesus)
1 John 5;20 “And we are in the one who is true, his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life”
Hebrew 1:8,9 “therefore God, your God, anointed you with oil of gladness above your companions”
http://www.stignatious.com/articles/trinity.htm
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