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To: Physicist
If you want to call that "design"--and I am very sympathetic to that point of view--then I'm willing to accept that the universe was designed.

Well, wait a minute; If you're willing to 'LEAN', if you will, towards GRAND DESIGN, then WHY would you argue with me that somethings could have happen by chance?

For instance, lets assume God used Choas to create LIFE. If he used ORDER to create the world so that CHOAS could degenerate it into life, then God still created Life. All you're doing is argueing that He did it from the Big Bang forward, whereas I'm saying that he touched a few molecules on Earth and made the Universes best 'Wedding Cake'.

You've even put forth the idea that a SALT DOME is a work of incredible odds. Heck, I don't disagree. He certainly was a master. So if the chances of SALT coming together to make a SALT DOME seems a bit rare, imagine if it could walk, breath, communicate and reproduce. NOW that's something to behold!!

I'll accept that God's grand design was mathematically based, but as the Creator of the Universe, He also gave the insight to learn and master the Mathematics to see his work, to His most perfect beings, you and I.

302 posted on 06/26/2003 6:35:41 AM PDT by Loose_Cannon1 (Part French and hating myself for it!!)
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To: Loose_Cannon1
Well, wait a minute; If you're willing to 'LEAN', if you will, towards GRAND DESIGN, then WHY would you argue with me that somethings could have happen by chance?

Wait a minute yourself. I thought your point is that life could not have happened by chance, so therefore it must have been built "by hand".

My own expectation is that life evolved by insensible degrees from nonlife. If the entire process were laid bare before us, there would be enormous debate about what qualifies as the simplest life form, and what only qualifies as "mere" organic chemistry. (Even today, people argue about whether viruses and prions qualify as life forms.) Wherever the line would be drawn, however, the "first life form" would have an enormous history behind it.

But if I'm wrong, and it really was a matter of chance, then so be it. There seem to be worlds enough (and time) for that, so there's still no requirement for divine intervention.

For instance, lets assume God used Choas to create LIFE. If he used ORDER to create the world so that CHOAS could degenerate it into life, then God still created Life.

By that standard, there can be nothing in existence that is not designed. There can be no test that says, "this is designed" or "this is not designed", because all it will ever say is "designed". Even if that's true from some perspective, it's not a useful heuristic.

I'm saying that he touched a few molecules on Earth and made the Universes best 'Wedding Cake'.

It's a rather inadequate conception of God you have, that He would have to do anything so vulgar as move atoms "by hand" into positions where they would not naturally have gone. Why wouldn't He write the laws of physics and chemistry so that they would automatically allow for such things in the first place? What makes people so faithless, that they think they can find gross seams in their God's handiwork?

You've even put forth the idea that a SALT DOME is a work of incredible odds.

I've done no such thing. Salt domes are self-evidently likely objects. I was presenting you a reductio ad absurdum for that probability calculation technique. Garbage in, garbage out.

Heck, I don't disagree. He certainly was a master.

But I can't smell it for you, I guess. All I can do is point it out.

305 posted on 06/26/2003 7:08:59 AM PDT by Physicist
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