Where Have All the FR Protestants Gone? [A Month Later]

drstevej

[drstevej]

Thread from last month...

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Where Have All the FR Protestants Gone?
drstevej

Posted on 04/08/2003 12:29 PM CDT by drstevej

OBSERVATIONS:

[1] There seems to be a significantly reduced number of Protestant Threads (KJV Only being the exception for sure) in the FR Religion Forum.

[2] There seems to be a reduced number of FR Protestant posts in the Religion Forum.

This thread is a place to discuss these observations.

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Now the transformation to a Catholic Religion Forum is almost complete. Must be a Marian miracle or an answer to Jim Robinson's prayer, "Can't we all just get along?" Now all the dissent is within the RC fold ... NO Mass vs. Tridentine Mass. Boredom has descended, the moderators are free to nap without fear of an **** awakening them.

Could someone arrange for a funeral mass? (a clown mass in this case might be in order).

 

-- Pope Piel  I (thinking of abdicating prior to even assuming the Chair of Peter)

[B-Chan]

B-chan: "Christians are forbidden from any rebellion against lawful authority, and specifically are forbidden to withhold their taxes."

You might have a point. I think you should move to England and repent to the Queen.

Since I did not rebel against Her Majesty myself, I have nothing for which to apologize

But first, since you claim to be a Texan (in your tagline)

East Dallas, born and raised. I live in Tarrant County now.

... you should start a drive to return the Alamo....

See above comment.

[Aloysius]

BTW, I am a dispensational Calvinist.

All Dispensational Calvinists should be required to wear that goofy brown beret that Calvin wore. That way, we could spot you in a crowd and forbid you from holding office.

[SoothingDave]

A new thread has been posted

A new thread? We've got room for another 65,000 posts on this one.

SD

[drstevej]

***All Dispensational Calvinists should be required to wear that goofy brown beret that Calvin wore.***

We do, all Calvinists do. The way to spot a dispensational Calvinist is the "Plan of the Ages neck tie" we wear.

[malakhi]

They do! Palestinians have no rights in Israel as they are not citizens of Israel.

That is untrue. There are Arab citizens of Israel, and Arab members of the Knesset.

[SoothingDave]

They do! Palestinians have no rights in Israel as they are not citizens of Israel.

That is untrue. There are Arab citizens of Israel, and Arab members of the Knesset.

I gather that Tantum was speaking of the Palestinians who live in the "occupation." I don't think they are citizens of Israel.

SD

[malakhi]

You forgot the anticipated Mass at 5:30 PM Saturday. So much for keeping holy the Sabbath.

"The Sabbath" is Saturday. You may observe "the Lord's Day" on Sunday, but in doing so you are not observing the Sabbath.

[malakhi]

The anticipated Saturday Mass cannot fulfil the Sunday obligation, because to claim so is a direct contradiction of the Third Commandment.

See my last post.

[Aloysius]

You may observe "the Lord's Day" on Sunday, but in doing so you are not observing the Sabbath.

It's a New Covenant vs. Old Covenant issue.

[malakhi]

In any event, the Church has no power to dispense with the Third Commandment and thus move the Sunday obligation to Saturday evening.

This is fascinating. So the church has the authority to "move" the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, but does not have the authority to credit a Saturday evening mass attendance to the Sunday obligation?

[SoothingDave]

The Sabbath" is Saturday. You may observe "the Lord's Day" on Sunday, but in doing so you are not observing the Sabbath.

The Baltimore Catechism gives:

356. Q. Are the Sabbath day and the Sunday the same?

A. The Sabbath day and the Sunday are not the same. The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week, and is the day which was kept holy in the Old . Law; the Sunday is the first day of the week, and is the day which is kept holy in the New Law.
"Old Law" means the law that God gave to the Jews, the New Law, the law that Our Lord gave to Christians.

A traditionalist Catholic should know the difference between the Sabbath and Sunday.

SD

[SoothingDave]

I knew you'd enjoy that, so I left it for you. LOL

SD

[malakhi]

The New Covenant moved the Sabbath to Sunday.

Can you cite me a scripture on this? I'll be generous and even let you pick something from the back part of your bible.

[jt8d]

No, American Colleen, you are quite mistaken. Read Hillare Belloc, a noted Catholic historian of significant prominance. Read his work 'The Great Heresies.'

"Joseph the Visionary who was a monk (NOT AN ORDAINED PRIEST [emphasis, my own])..." A rather important distinction to ponder.

"...so that my hands may stretch out in purity
to receive your holy and fearful Body and Blood."

This verse does not explicitly prove your contention; and moreover, there are many things that "early Christians" did, however, depending on the merit and adherence to sound theology, not all of their practices were codified in the Canon of the Mass. That is one of the salient points where the Novus Ordo diverges from The Sacred Liturgy of the Tridentine: the idea that we must do exactly as the "early Christians" did, which is wrong on its face. There were probably a great many practices performed by the "early Christians" that would not be considered legitimate representations of what Christ instituted. Do not forget that this was a time of flux, as the gospel of Christ was being promulgated throughout the Roman Empire--and different sects would have naturally emerged with their own interpretations, influenced by what was the cultural norms of the period. That is why the Mass was codified through the three major doctrinal Councils: Hippo, Nicaea, and Trent.

[malakhi]

The Church is the sole and proper interpreter of Scripture, but even she cannot make it say what it does not say. The Church can change all manner of Holy Days and related obligations except the Sabbath obligation.

Steven, you don't want to miss this.

[malakhi]

Read the Preamble to the Magna Charta of 1215, then follow the natural progression that follows throughout the history of Man's "famous" documents, where God slowly gets booted out of the picture in favor of The Cult of Man: The Mayflower Compact, The American Declaration of Independence, The United States Constitution, The French Declaration on the Rights of Man, The United Nations' Declaration of Human Rights, and The Humanist Manifesto I and II.

Saudi Arabia is a monarchy. And yet, strangely, we prefer to live in the United States.

[OLD REGGIE]

The Latin Mass is the Mass of Saints. The Novus Ordo era has been four decades of retreat and scandal. With what Mass would you rather associate?

Am I to assume there were no saints for the first 600 or so years until Gregory I instituted the Tridentine Mass as the "standard"?

Prior to that time the Mass was in the vernacular.

Or, is it possible you are claiming the Tridentine Mass was the only valid "Novus Ordo" Mass?

[jt8d]

"Vatican II had nothing to do with this sad turn of events, as some allege."

No, Vatican II did not initiate the liberal idea of religious liberty and the heresy of americanism, what Vatican II did was to legitimize their practice, I am sad to say.

[Aloysius]

A traditionalist Catholic should know the difference between the Sabbath and Sunday.

So, are you saying the Third Commandment requires us to keep holy Saturday?

[huskyboy]

So they aren't brought into the Church until they are dead? You believe there are people who die without being a part of the Church who then, after they die, become part of the Church?

This should clear things up:

This hope of salvation is placed in the Catholic Church which, in preserving the true worship, is the solid home of this faith and the temple of God. Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control. (Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem, paragraph 7)

I would, first of all, leave it to Our Lord to know who is excused through ignorance beyond control. Suffice it to say in those limited circumstances, certain people would have had the opportunity after death to see how He had died for us so that they would be saved if they believe in Him. There's not much else to say, for a good reason. It is His Church, so He has a right to seek such people.

People have seen visions of purgatory and of hell. I know of no similar vision of a truly ignorant individual being saved. That would tell us something important - that the exceptions prove the rule, which is that all people must be in the Church, that is to say, the one Church which is visible here on earth, in order to be saved.

The invisible parts of the Church - the parts we don't see right now (excepting visions) - are in purgatory and in heaven.

How is this right now? Are you following this (seriously, I hope I explained it clearly here - didn't want anyone confused)?