Where Have All the FR Protestants Gone? [A Month Later]

drstevej

[St.Chuck]

So would the anticipated Mass celebrated (not offered) well before sunset on Saturday be illicit?

Honestly I don't know what the cutoff times for licitness are. It seems to me, that there could be some geographical and cultural leeway. Aren't you heartened to learn that something you would call a novelty actually makes sense? Do you think you might discover you have other misconceptions?

[ultima ratio]

Here is what Cardinal Ratzinger himself has said:

"When the council fathers replaced the word "is" with the word "subsistit," they did so for a very precise reason. The concept expressed by "is" (to be) is far broader than that expressed by "to subsist." "To subsist" is a very precise way of being, that is, to be as a subject, which exists in itself. Thus the Council fathers meant to say that the being of the Church as such is a broader entity than the Roman Catholic Church, but within the latter it acquires, in an incomparable way, the charater of a true and proper subject." L'Osservatore Romano, October 8, 2000.

In this quote by the Cardinal, it should be noted that when he uses the phrase "the Church" he means something broader than "the Catholic Church." He means the "Church of Christ" which includes, according to him, the Orthodox churches and other Christian bodies.

[St.Chuck]

There is no Catholic tradition to support the practice of Saturday evening Mass.

There is a long, long Catholic tradition that the day begins with the preceding evening. Take a look at a breviary.

[ultima ratio]

"Show me where in any school of classical theology that any entity can have more than one subsistence."

You are confusing two different words--"substance" and "subsistence." For something to "subsist" in something means that it exists UNDER some other entity not itself. It does NOT establish identity.

[sinkspur]

You didn't reply to my Easter Vigil question, which was celebrated as a "vigil," and attendance at which was considered attendance at an Easter Mass.

There IS precedent.

[ultima ratio]

The sunshine is not the sun. His virtual presence is not his Real Presence.

[ultima ratio]

"Which is it?
the one timeless sacrifice
or
the one sacrifice reenacted"

Both. Timeless and within time--same as Christ Himself.

[Loyalist]

There is a long, long Catholic tradition that the day begins with the preceding evening. Take a look at a breviary.

If anticipated Mass were consistent with that tradition, it would have been practiced long before now.

[drstevej]

***The sunshine is not the sun.***

The sun is also only in one location. You argur the Son is in many places at once.

***His virtual presence is not his Real Presence. ***

Lo I am with you always... was He teasing?

[Aloysius]

Aren't you heartened to learn that something you would call a novelty actually makes sense?

It doesn't make sense. You are citing Jewish law to defend a novelty of new Catholicism. Does this mean that one is forbidden from servile work on Saturday evening?

[ultima ratio]

Now you're getting cute. If you get right down to it, nothing is analogous and all speech fails.

[Loyalist]

You didn't reply to my Easter Vigil question, which was celebrated as a "vigil," and attendance at which was considered attendance at an Easter Mass.

And only at Easter Vigil, which had been moving earlier and earlier into the day.

Pius XII rightly had it moved back to a later time so that Mass could begin at midnight in proper fulfilment of the Sunday obligation.

Yes, sometimes there was widespread liturgical abuse before Vatican II. But at least it was corrected.

[sinkspur]

If anticipated Mass were consistent with that tradition, it would have been practiced long before now.

It was. THE EASTER VIGIL!

And where do you get the notion that the Church cannot make changes to worship schedules?

Holy Days of Obligation have been added, and deleted, and combined, and moved to Sundays, throughout history. Laws of fast and abstinence have been changed, and the recitation of the Divine Office, long considered an obligation binding under pain of mortal sin for those in Orders, can be dispensed by a bishop for almost any reason.

[drstevej]

You're the one who said, "The sunshine is not the sun" Amid my humor, lame as it might be, was a point.

[Desdemona]

The Saturday Vigil is called "The Fisherman's Mass." Do the math.

[Land of the Irish]

ORTHODOX N.O. Catholic.

An oxymoron, IMHO.

[sinkspur]

Pius XII rightly had it moved back to a later time so that Mass could begin at midnight in proper fulfilment of the Sunday obligation.

We attended the Easter Vigil every year, faithfully, and I can't recall it every beginning any later than 8:00.

This was in the late 50s and early 60s. Our Italian monsignor was not one to play fast and loose with the rules, either.

Anticipated Saturday evening masses were allowed in mission dioceses with a shortage of priests, as well.

This is another instance where the ultra-trads marginalize themselves, with their jots and tittles.

The FSSP, which is widely admired around here, also celebrates the Tridentine Mass on Saturday evenings.

I'll bet that chaps, doesn't it?

[Loyalist]

And where do you get the notion that the Church cannot make changes to worship schedules?

From the Third Commandment, and the New Covenant through whose light it must be read. The Church is the sole and proper interpreter of Scripture, but even she cannot make it say what it does not say.

The Church can change all manner of Holy Days and related obligations except the Sabbath obligation.

[Desdemona]

You all are driving me nuts.

The Saturday Sabbath Vigil was instituted to accomodate fishermen who worked on Sunday morning, which is why it wasn't everywhere. They are on the boats before dawn and there was no Mass for them, so...it became a Mass of convenience for everybody else.

[St.Chuck]

If anticipated Mass were consistent with that tradition, it would have been practiced long before now.

I'm just suggesting that the Saturday anticipated mass shouldn't raise much of a ruckus, as there is a precedence for such observances.