Where Have All the FR Protestants Gone? [A Month Later]

drstevej

[jt8d]

To: Polycarp
"Pardon my ignorance, but what is an integrist? I've seen the other terms, but what is their view?" 12 posted on 05/19/2003 7:22 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (+ Vive Jesus! (Live Jesus!) +)

What is an integrist? I never heard such a term, and I have been around awhile.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

You guys all go for the obvious. How about simply taking a toenail clipper to the teeth?

"Is it safe?"

[drstevej]

Isn't there a warning on the drill manual not to use on kneecaps to avoid explosions? You're the type that would remove the "Do not remove under penalty of law" label from a mattress.

[ultima ratio]

You leave out one dimension of your run-down. The people who post here are vitally INTERESTED in the Church and are on the sidelines watching a titanic struggle over the Church's own identity. Unlike most go-along Catholics who couldn't care less which way the future panned out, we care and are ready to argue the issue. If traditionalists are now ascendant, it's because modernism has failed--and failed abysmally--and it is no wonder its supporters are backing off. At least traditionalism offers a remedy--a rejection of unworkable novelties and a return to the faith handed-down to us from apostolic times.

[ultima ratio]

There is a huge difference in the way the concept of sacrifice is used. In classic theology there is a destruction--an immolation of a victim--in other words, a repeat of the original sacrifice, over and over, for as many times as there are Masses. In the new theology, there is no destruction and the death of Christ is merely memorialized. In the first case, the sacrifice is PRESENT and offered to the Father; in the second case, the sacrifice is a historical reference that is being commemorated.

One of the tricks of modernism has been to take a term--"Eucharist", "sacrament", "sacrifice"--and to alter its meaning in subtle ways that render the term novel and untraditional.

Not only does the N.O., for instance, use the term "sacrifice" differently from Catholic usage in the past, but it has dismantled the ancient tripartite sacrificial structure of the Mass as well--oblation (Offertory); immolation (Consecration) and consummation (Communion) in favor of the commemorative meal structure. This is why the Jewish prayer before meals was substituted for the Offertory and why the assembly itself is the prime focus of the priest and not the sacrifice to God the Father.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Naw, it only warns you about making your own kneecaps explode. The Irish in Ulster have been using the technique on drug dealers and informers for decades, the advent of the cordless drill meant that you could take your fun anywhere

[jt8d]

"As the Pope has said "we must smother error with truth."

Here is a sampling of some of "the devil we know"... "smothering error with truth."

These excerpts are from a 17-page-long dissertation I presented last summer, in part as a rebuke of the media's ongoing attempt to misidentify the problem of homosexual priests to being an issue of "pediophilia:"

The ecumenical philosophy of Religious Liberty espoused by Pope John Paul II goes without equal. The Holy Father is undoubtedly an unswerving champion of the new theology. The Modernists see him as their own—the quintessential intellectual. John Paul II is looked upon as the ecumenical pope, the progressive pope; and, in 1986, he became the pope of Assisi, where representatives from the world's “other great religions” gathered together under the Holy Father’s big ecumenical tent to declare their own brand of Solidarity. With the advent of Assisi, Religious Liberty triumphed over Catholic unity, and apostasy was now being openly celebrated within the Church; and being done so without apology—excepting for Pope John Paul’s ongoing lamentations before the world for the historical “mistakes” of the Church Triumphant.

What ever happened to the Church Militant? We now prefer the impotent homiletics of an ambiguous theology, patronizing psychobabble, and other flowery liberal niceties. To illustrate this point, let us examine some of the more recent ecumenical developments:

1986 Prayer Meeting of Religions at Assisi: At this “celebration” in the presence of Pope John Paul II, a statue of Buddha sat smiling upon the holy tabernacle of a Catholic Basilica – the Church of Saint Peter. Perhaps the Holy Father thought rubbing elbows with this trinket would bring the Church good luck? All the world’s “other great religions” were given equal billing on the ecumenical marquee. We’re all one, big happy commune—Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Jainist, Shintoist, Animalist, Pantheist, Spiritualist, etc.—it makes no difference in Pope John Paul’s grand ecumenical love-in.

1999 Vatican meeting with Christian and non-Christian Iraqi clerics: Pope John Paul II is presented a gift, the Muslim Qumran. As a sign of respect—and solidarity with Islam the Holy Father bows before, and then, kisses the holy book of Islam. Islam denies the Holy Trinity and the deity of Christ. Islam also denies the sacraments, the real presence, etc. Post September 11, 2001, we may also conclude that Islam denies the right to life for any human being, if that soul does not bow to Allah—a pagan moon god drummed up from Bedouin myth. But these trivial details do not dissuade our Holy Father from continuing to bestow his seal of approval upon the false religion of Islam and its little pieces of truth.

1999 Catechism given by The Holy Father: The Pope postulates that Heaven, Purgatory and Hell are not actual physical places where the reunited body and soul enjoys eternal glory with Christ, receives final purification from the effects of sin, or else suffers eternal punishment for willfully rejecting Christ. According to John Paul II, Heaven and Hell are metaphorical biblical language describing a state of mind and not a physical reality. Does anyone seriously believe these statements to be in keeping with the orthodox Catholic faith?

2001 Ecumenical Council of Bishops: Catholic bishops declare that no substantive difference exists between the Catholic dogma of salvation through sacramental grace, and the Lutheran heresy of salvation by faith alone. Should anyone be surprised by this natural progression of events? The Magisterium has always taught, as an infallible dogma of the faith, that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church—period. But perhaps the enlightened ecumenical Bishops skipped a few classes during their Catechism.

Children of Babylon or Prodigal Son?

Truly, the fulfillment of a pagan one-world religion is nearer to being a reality now more than ever, as Rome continues to trumpet its divergence from orthodoxy to be a watershed for the Church. That such an evisceration of the Catholic faith was the planned outcome ought to be painfully obvious. We have struggled through forty years of the Catholic world turned upside down; but perhaps, like the obstinate Israelites of Moses' day, Catholics of the modern era must endure another forty years in the desert before they repent of their pride. Pray we are like the Prodigal Son and not the children of Babylon.

Catholics ought to consider the declaration of Saint Pope Pius V: the Tridentine Rite is the Mass in perpetuity, and anyone who would alter the sacred liturgy, let him be anathema. Nowhere within the Council text of Vatican II will one find instructions to destroy the Latin Rite, to “create” a New Mass, or to promote any other of the endless ecumenical novelties that have been substituted for Catholic tradition. However, advocates of Catholic orthodoxy are threatened with excommunication for resisting the changes wrought by the reformers. Rome insists that those who are faithful to tradition shall remain under pain of this indictment for as long as they adhere to such practice. How peculiar the Ecumenists tolerate every belief except the orthodox Catholic faith. But who stands indicted today? Truly, it is not the followers of tradition that have perverted the faith of Peter, and brought shame upon the Church; rather the guilt belongs to the Modernists, those liberal sheep in wolf’s clothing who gutted the Holy Mass; those vultures who compromised the priesthood; and those “bishops” who remained obstinately silent about criminal acts while hiding behind the ecumenical love-in. Catholics ought to soberly examine the costs of blindly following the ecumenical Church. For Modernism has singularly accomplished in less than one lifetime what the combined efforts of every previous heresy had failed to achieve over the course of two millennia:

1. Modernism has caused the estrangement of thousands of devout Catholics: Those who remember the unequivocal edicts issued against Religious Liberty, not least of which were the proclamations given by Pope Saint Pius V and Pope Saint Pius X, the only popes to be canonized by the Church in 500 years;

2. Modernism has confused the faith of a generation: Those who were brought up with the orthodox precepts of the traditional Baltimore Catechism and 1917 Code of Canon Law, and have since been forced to digest the heterodox theology promulgated by the “new” Catechism of the Catholic Church and the “revised” Canon of 1983;

3. Modernism leads countless astray: Those compelled to march lock step beneath Rome's banner of Ecumenism, whom now see the modern Church, and wonder “What difference to be Catholic or Protestant, or of any other belief?”

Today the Cult of Man provides Catholics yet one more miserable manifestation of its pathology: a cadre of incorrigible homosexual priests—and their protectors, who echo the same liberal cacophony that dominates the secular culture: Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity!

Roman Catholics now stand at a crossroads on this journey to pluralism. We either continue merrily along, like the Children of Babylon, whilst following worldly charlatans down their ecumenical road to ruin; or else we return home, like the Prodigal Son, back to the apostolic faith of our fathers.

The Church must make an abrupt about-face for two paramount reasons. Firstly, to reconcile with heresy is to be anathema. God-given common sense pleads with us to recognize that another 40 years of celebrating the “brave new liturgy” of Annibale Bugnini and his fellow theologians of the “new way” will empty the Catholic faith of all meaning. Secondly, the Church jeopardizes her authority of infallible moral teaching. The loss of that authority would be disastrous for humanity. Perhaps most poignant is this question: When did being accepted by the world become a Catholic virtue? This cult of personality is not part of our faith; however, such folly is much the mark of our ancient adversary, Satan, and the heresies he has inspired through the ages.

[drstevej]

You have freepmail. More fun projects for the cordless drill owner.

[jt8d]

Would you care to resite the Holy Rosary of Our Lord's Immaculate Mother?

[Desdemona]

psst: recite.

Resite involves physical moving.

[jt8d]

Aurgggh!!! Just the mental picture of that makes me wince. Must be where dentistry got its start!

[drstevej]

To: drstevej

 

50,000 posted on 04/29/2003 9:17 PM CDT by drstevej

To: drstevej

54,000 posted on 05/19/2003 10:29 PM CDT by drstevej

[jt8d]

Sorry... my automatic "beat me in the head with a 2x4" function failed to inform of my gross negligence!

[Alex Murphy]

My all time favorite technique is still to remove the skin, and soak the exposed flesh with Gasoline, you don't even have to ask any questions, they WILL talk, before and after they scream

You're a sick man, CDL.

My all-time favorite technique involves a cochlear implant recipient, a reel-to-reel deck with a looped segment of tape, an audio patch cable, and a copy of William Shatner's album The Transformed Man

Guess what they're playing in the agony booths this week?

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Guess what they're playing in the agony booths this week?

i don't know, maybe Donny Osmond singing Puppy Love...even for an inquisitioner that qualifies as "cruel and unusual punishment".

You're a sick man, CDL.

Aye, but you can't do a job like that properly unless you enjoy it!

[narses]

"You will attend a Tridentine Mass over a Novus Ordo, if given the choice."

And there is something WRONG with that?

[narses]

Knowledgeable posters like sitetest and patent have all but vanished from FR, and these two were major proponents of the NO.

For me and Deacon Sinky to agree is noteworthy. I agree that sitetest and patent are knowledgeable posters, I've learned a great deal from them. Have they really "disappeared"? Were they (are they) "proponents" of the NO or just well spoken defenders of the mainstream orthodoxy which includes both the NO and the Tridentine (as well as some 20+ other valid Rites)?

[Starwind]

Participating bears so little fruit.

The theology discussed is not worth the invective (from all sides) that must be endured - little of it honors Christ, much of it probably dismays Him.

It's not what is said, but how it is said. One can disagree sarcastically and even vehemently and yet civilly, but the cheap shot is often the first shot, the goal becomes not understanding and communication but "scoring points" for one's position - in the worst extremes it becomes a bloodsport and a 'group think' seems to take over. This carries from thread to thread.

There seems an 'us' vs 'them' dynamic that precludes congenial participation by non-RC's on 'RC threads'; or Calvinists vs Arminians; Amillenialists v Preterists v Millennialists; or KJV-only v NIV/NASB/etc v 'Church Fathers & Tradition', ad nauseum.

I think the disagreement can be elucidating, but the invective one must wade thru inclines one to pick one's threads most carefully.

And moderators attempting to arbitrate truth doesn't help. They should pull posts & posters soley for violating stated guidelines (obscenity, threats, lack of civility or etiquette) none of which includes competently disproving (with publicly verifiable facts) someone elses position or beliefs, no matter how deeply held. If they're unsure, just move the thread to the smokey backroom. It's ok to belong to the flat earth society and post on FR, but being shown a globe does not constitute abuse.

[bonfire]

Great post.

[fatima]

sinkspur,You can not discuss this because as a deacon you took a vow never to remarry or to be a priest.