This "all the saints of God from every age, are currently sleeping in their graves," is obviously untrue:
Mat. 17:1-5 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. (Also, Mark 9:2-8)
Moses and Elias seem to have been very much awake.
2 Cor 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Unless you believe Paul was mistaken, he obviously believes to be "absent from the body" is to be "present with the Lord." Now, being asleep is hardly being present with anyone.
I have more to say about this, but am interested to responses to this first.
Hank
If it's obviously untrue then we have a contradiction in the bible:
From the article:
"HEBREWS 11:13 All these [Abraham, Noah, Abel, etc.] died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. . . . 39 And all these [including Abraham], having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect." (NASB)
The great men and women of faith listed in Hebrews 11 have not yet been made perfect and given eternal life. They, along with all the saints of God from every age, are currently sleeping in their graves (Job 3:11-19; Psa. 6:5; 115:17; Ecc. 9:5, 10; I Cor. 15:20; Isa. 57:1-2; Dan. 12:2; Acts 2:29, 34; 13:36). These saints are awaiting the first resurrection, which will take place when Yeshua the Messiah returns at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Matt. 24:30-31; I Cor. 15:51-52; I The. 4:16; Rev. 11:15-18).
Hebrews clearly and unequivocally states that Moses did not receive the promise. That he was not made perfect. In other words, he had not yet received eternal life. And how could he? Nobody could have received eternal life until the blood of Christ was shed:
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
With this in mind, and knowing that the bible can't contradict itself, there must be another explanation for Mat. 17:1-5 where Moses and Elisa were seen.
For one thing it was a vision:
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
According to Thayers and Strongs concordance, the greek for the word vision is "horama". It's definition is:
1) that which is seen, spectacle
2) a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision
The same word is also used in this verse when Peter is being led out of prison by an angel:
Act 12:9 And he went out and followed him. And he did not know that this happening through the angel was true, but thought he saw a vision.
Notice that scripture differentiates a "vision" (horama) from objective reality. Peter thought he was being given a divine vision.
Jesus gave Peter, James, and John a divine vision. Since scripture tells us that Moses and Elijah did not have eternal life...indeed could not because Christ had not yet been sacrificed...then this must have been a divine vision of the future kingdom of God.
2 Cor 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Two things here:
...willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord
"And" doesn't mean that there can't be a gap, a period of unconsciousness between death and eternal life. In fact, there would be no sense of the passage of time and Paul probably understood this.
Another explanation is that Paul is talking about the return of his spirit to God. I believe this happens and that our spirits are held there in an unconscious state until the resurrection.
Amen!
We need to see what the main discussion is for why Paul saids this. lets start with verse 1.
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Paul tells here that there are 2 types of bodies. One is from earth and the other one is from Heaven. He tells us that if the earthly one goes away, we will get the second one. I think we can all agree to this.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
Paul now tell as that we groan to get our heavenly house. that is our desire. Now the question must be asked when do we get this heavenly house. Well we know from 1 cor. 15:51-52 that we get it at the resurrection. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory.
ok. lets go on... 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. < 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Notice in this verse what the groaning is about... to get a new body. So if Paul is in heaven it can not be too much blisss because he is still groaning. Matter in fact he was not waiting to be unclothed(which people who say he is in heaven would say he is unclothed.), which would that tell me that he had a more desire to get a new body then to be with his Lord if he is there now! Notice also that he compares the clothing upon to when mortality is swallowed up. comparing this to 1 COR., we know this happen at the resurrection
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Now he says he is willing to be out of the body and be with the lord. So after reading the first part of the chapters we must conclude either one of these 1.) Paul was absent from the body and in a consious state at death, but is still groaning for his new body. Also , that he jumps from the talking about the resurrection to death with no reasoning. or 2.)he is asleep and the next thing he knows he will have his new body and be present with the Lord. Also, verses 6-8 would flow nicely with the first 5 verses