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To: Hank Kerchief
This "all the saints of God from every age, are currently sleeping in their graves," is obviously untrue:

If it's obviously untrue then we have a contradiction in the bible:

From the article:

"HEBREWS 11:13 All these [Abraham, Noah, Abel, etc.] died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. . . . 39 And all these [including Abraham], having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect." (NASB)
The great men and women of faith listed in Hebrews 11 have not yet been made perfect and given eternal life. They, along with all the saints of God from every age, are currently sleeping in their graves (Job 3:11-19; Psa. 6:5; 115:17; Ecc. 9:5, 10; I Cor. 15:20; Isa. 57:1-2; Dan. 12:2; Acts 2:29, 34; 13:36). These saints are awaiting the first resurrection, which will take place when Yeshua the Messiah returns at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Matt. 24:30-31; I Cor. 15:51-52; I The. 4:16; Rev. 11:15-18).

Hebrews clearly and unequivocally states that Moses did not receive the promise. That he was not made perfect. In other words, he had not yet received eternal life. And how could he? Nobody could have received eternal life until the blood of Christ was shed:

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

With this in mind, and knowing that the bible can't contradict itself, there must be another explanation for Mat. 17:1-5 where Moses and Elisa were seen.

For one thing it was a vision:

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

According to Thayers and Strongs concordance, the greek for the word vision is "horama". It's definition is:

1) that which is seen, spectacle
2) a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision

The same word is also used in this verse when Peter is being led out of prison by an angel:

Act 12:9 And he went out and followed him. And he did not know that this happening through the angel was true, but thought he saw a vision.

Notice that scripture differentiates a "vision" (horama) from objective reality. Peter thought he was being given a divine vision.

Jesus gave Peter, James, and John a divine vision. Since scripture tells us that Moses and Elijah did not have eternal life...indeed could not because Christ had not yet been sacrificed...then this must have been a divine vision of the future kingdom of God.

2 Cor 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Two things here:

...willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord

"And" doesn't mean that there can't be a gap, a period of unconsciousness between death and eternal life. In fact, there would be no sense of the passage of time and Paul probably understood this.

Another explanation is that Paul is talking about the return of his spirit to God. I believe this happens and that our spirits are held there in an unconscious state until the resurrection.

9 posted on 03/14/2003 6:52:04 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
Hebrews clearly and unequivocally states that Moses did not receive the promise.

Right. But the promise is not "resurrection," but the Messiah. What was promised was a redeemer, and that promise has been fulfilled. All those who had not yet seen the promise fulfilled were yet saved by their faith that God would keep his promise, which He did when our Savior was revealed, born of a Virgin (as promised) and bore our sins in His own body on the cross (as promised). Jesus is the fulfillment of all the promises.

Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Rom. 9:3-5 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Rom 15:7-8 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God. Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers.

2 Cor. 1:19-20 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

So, our Lord is the fulfillment of all the promises.

As for "sleep," it is obvious to any honest reader of Scripture the expression is only a metaphor for physical death, which is common in all cultures and languages. There is not theological import in any of those verses that describe death with the metaphor sleep regarding the nature of death.

Hank

10 posted on 03/14/2003 7:42:20 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
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