Posted on 03/13/2003 9:17:14 PM PST by DouglasKC
It all hinges on these words: LUKE 16:19 "There was a certain rich man
Other ways to present that story, if it were fiction, were possible for Jesus.
The present opening does not mean, however, that it is definitely an actual event that transpired. It does mean, though, that one should not ignore that as a possibility.
Actually, it a "Universalist" website, which teaches that there is no "Hell," and that "eternity" isn't actually "eternal."
DG
I find it interesting that when he gets to this point in the paper, he totally ignores the fact that people avoid this place of torment by repentance.
First, Yeshua the Messiah never accuses the rich man of any sin. He is simply portrayed as a wealthy man who lived the good life. Furthermore, Lazarus is never proclaimed to be a righteous man.
But if we believe Romans 3:23 (for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God) then we know that both men were sinners and it becomes obvious that Lazarus avoided the torment through repentance and the Rich Man did not. He seems to be hinting at "works righteousness."
This "all the saints of God from every age, are currently sleeping in their graves," is obviously untrue:
Mat. 17:1-5 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. (Also, Mark 9:2-8)
Moses and Elias seem to have been very much awake.
2 Cor 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Unless you believe Paul was mistaken, he obviously believes to be "absent from the body" is to be "present with the Lord." Now, being asleep is hardly being present with anyone.
I have more to say about this, but am interested to responses to this first.
Hank
If we take this story as literal, then everything has to be literal, else, we will be picking and choosing which parts we like to take literally and which we do not (this is a true picture of the after-life but this part is not true...).
If taken literally, there is, what appears to me, an obvious question, which evidently is not so obvious, because almost no one else seems to have noticed it. From Paul's words in in 1 Cor. 15:42-44, there seem to be only two bodies, the one we have in this life, that is buried, and the one we have when resurrected. So, the question is, what are these bodies that Lazarus and Dives have after death but before the resurrection? Certainly no one believes in disembodied fingers and tongues. But if Lazarus and Dives have literal bodies, with tongues and fingers, there is some kind of body those who have died have before the resurrection, or else, this story is not literal.
This question also relates to the transfiguration where Moses and Elijah were seen speaking with Jesus. What kind of bodies did Moses and Elijah have?
This much is at least apparent, when talking about our future state, only those things which are explicitly stated are certain. "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." (John 14:1-3)
That is certain! Everything else, like when, how, what happens in the meantime, is both uncertain and mostly conjecture.
(To Cleburne: the Hebrews 12:22-23 passage is the first that came to my mind when reading the original post also. It is also the only true description of the church, as far as I'm concerned.)
Hank
If it's obviously untrue then we have a contradiction in the bible:
From the article:
"HEBREWS 11:13 All these [Abraham, Noah, Abel, etc.] died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. . . . 39 And all these [including Abraham], having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect." (NASB)
The great men and women of faith listed in Hebrews 11 have not yet been made perfect and given eternal life. They, along with all the saints of God from every age, are currently sleeping in their graves (Job 3:11-19; Psa. 6:5; 115:17; Ecc. 9:5, 10; I Cor. 15:20; Isa. 57:1-2; Dan. 12:2; Acts 2:29, 34; 13:36). These saints are awaiting the first resurrection, which will take place when Yeshua the Messiah returns at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Matt. 24:30-31; I Cor. 15:51-52; I The. 4:16; Rev. 11:15-18).
Hebrews clearly and unequivocally states that Moses did not receive the promise. That he was not made perfect. In other words, he had not yet received eternal life. And how could he? Nobody could have received eternal life until the blood of Christ was shed:
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
With this in mind, and knowing that the bible can't contradict itself, there must be another explanation for Mat. 17:1-5 where Moses and Elisa were seen.
For one thing it was a vision:
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
According to Thayers and Strongs concordance, the greek for the word vision is "horama". It's definition is:
1) that which is seen, spectacle
2) a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision
The same word is also used in this verse when Peter is being led out of prison by an angel:
Act 12:9 And he went out and followed him. And he did not know that this happening through the angel was true, but thought he saw a vision.
Notice that scripture differentiates a "vision" (horama) from objective reality. Peter thought he was being given a divine vision.
Jesus gave Peter, James, and John a divine vision. Since scripture tells us that Moses and Elijah did not have eternal life...indeed could not because Christ had not yet been sacrificed...then this must have been a divine vision of the future kingdom of God.
2 Cor 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Two things here:
...willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord
"And" doesn't mean that there can't be a gap, a period of unconsciousness between death and eternal life. In fact, there would be no sense of the passage of time and Paul probably understood this.
Another explanation is that Paul is talking about the return of his spirit to God. I believe this happens and that our spirits are held there in an unconscious state until the resurrection.
Right. But the promise is not "resurrection," but the Messiah. What was promised was a redeemer, and that promise has been fulfilled. All those who had not yet seen the promise fulfilled were yet saved by their faith that God would keep his promise, which He did when our Savior was revealed, born of a Virgin (as promised) and bore our sins in His own body on the cross (as promised). Jesus is the fulfillment of all the promises.
Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Rom. 9:3-5 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 15:7-8 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God. Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers.
2 Cor. 1:19-20 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
So, our Lord is the fulfillment of all the promises.
As for "sleep," it is obvious to any honest reader of Scripture the expression is only a metaphor for physical death, which is common in all cultures and languages. There is not theological import in any of those verses that describe death with the metaphor sleep regarding the nature of death.
Hank
Well...I have no doubt that Christ was A promise...and that he fulfilled certain aspects of some promises, and indeed made eternal life possible, but in Hebrews 11 the promise being spoke of that Abraham and the others didn't recieve was a specific promise of eternal life, or heaven, or what have you, that is only available through Christ.
In other words, they're sleeping, unconscious and unaware of the passage of time until the resurrection and do not yet have eternal life.
How would you postulate that they gained eternal life? Or will gain eternal life?
Amen!
Eternal life is not somethning you get, like a plum out of a Christmas pie, it is a state wholly dependent on one'w relationship to God. "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)
The Jews did not believe in soul-sleep. They rightly understood that one either already had eternal life when they died, or would never have it. They mistakenly thought it was in the Scritures they had eternal life instead of the Author, however. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (John 5:39)
All Saints, Old and New Testament, either already have eternal life when they die (or died) to this life, or they shall never have it.
Hank
Here's a suggestive passage from Revelation.
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Once when confronted by accusers, Jesus said that on death a woman wouldn't be married to any of the 7 brothers to whom she'd been married, because in heaven she would be as the angels.
He also affirmed that it would be immediate. He didn't say, "I was the Father of Abe, Is, Jacob." Instead, he said, "I AM the Father of Abe, Is, Jacob." In other words, Abe/I/J weren't lying in some grave someplace. They are currently alive.
Well, sure, but the question is, what bodies are those that are being described for Lazarus, Dives, Moses, and Elias after death and before the resurrections?
Do you believe Jesus is bodily in heaven today? What about Enoch and Elijah? They were taken from this world in their bodies. Did their bodies dissolve, were they transformed, did they fall asleep after getting to heaven, or what?
Hank
We need to see what the main discussion is for why Paul saids this. lets start with verse 1.
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Paul tells here that there are 2 types of bodies. One is from earth and the other one is from Heaven. He tells us that if the earthly one goes away, we will get the second one. I think we can all agree to this.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
Paul now tell as that we groan to get our heavenly house. that is our desire. Now the question must be asked when do we get this heavenly house. Well we know from 1 cor. 15:51-52 that we get it at the resurrection. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory.
ok. lets go on... 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. < 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Notice in this verse what the groaning is about... to get a new body. So if Paul is in heaven it can not be too much blisss because he is still groaning. Matter in fact he was not waiting to be unclothed(which people who say he is in heaven would say he is unclothed.), which would that tell me that he had a more desire to get a new body then to be with his Lord if he is there now! Notice also that he compares the clothing upon to when mortality is swallowed up. comparing this to 1 COR., we know this happen at the resurrection
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Now he says he is willing to be out of the body and be with the lord. So after reading the first part of the chapters we must conclude either one of these 1.) Paul was absent from the body and in a consious state at death, but is still groaning for his new body. Also , that he jumps from the talking about the resurrection to death with no reasoning. or 2.)he is asleep and the next thing he knows he will have his new body and be present with the Lord. Also, verses 6-8 would flow nicely with the first 5 verses
There is no doubt Paul talks about being resurrected with a new body. If the story of Lazarus and Dives is literal, however, those in heaven, as well as hell, already have bodies.
If you decide to answer this, you might take a shot at answering the questions I posed in the previous post, Post #16
Hank
Agreed...a better word would be "received" eternal life through God's grace.
The Jews did not believe in soul-sleep. They rightly understood that one either already had eternal life when they died, or would never have it. They mistakenly thought it was in the Scritures they had eternal life instead of the Author, however. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (John 5:39)
That may be true, I'm not sure of Jewish belief on the subject. The next verse Jesus says:
Joh 5:40 and you will not come to Me that you might have life.
All Saints, Old and New Testament, either already have eternal life when they die (or died) to this life, or they shall never have it.
I would agree that they certainly have the promise that they will receive eternal life, but Hebrews 11 still suggests that they do not have it. I can see your point though because I believe our spirits return to God the father upon death. However, I think the the bible teaches that they're in a state of unconsciousness until the resurrection.
If your reading on this is that the angels in Rev 22:8 are men made into angels then I would have to disagree. I think the sense of the verse is that the angel is a fellow servant of God, just as John, the prophets, and those who keep the word of God. Alternate translations seem to bear this out:
Rev 22:9 But he told me, "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you, your brothers the prophets, and those who keep the words in this book. Worship God!" (ISV)
Rev 22:9 And he saith unto me, See thou do it not: I am a fellow-servant with thee and with thy brethren the prophets, and with them that keep the words of this book: worship God. (American Standard Version)
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