THE MORMONS AREN'T TAKING OVER THE PLANET QUITE AS FAST AS WE ONCE THOUGHT

Envoy Magazine Blog ^ | 1/2/2003 | Patrick Madrid

[Polycarp]

THE MORMONS AREN'T TAKING OVER THE PLANET QUITE AS FAST AS WE ONCE THOUGHT

Patrick Madrid&Action

EnvoyEncore

Today: Utah. Tomorrow: die Welt?

This morning's Salt Lake Tribune has an intriguing news item about the real versus perceived growth-rate of the Mormon Church. For decades, Mormons have touted their Church's rapid growth as a sort of implicit evidence that it is the True Church. Gordon B. Hinkley, the man at the top of the Mormon Church, echoes what many Mormons will tell you: that theirs is the "fastest-growing" Church in the world. Not so, says David Stewart, a Mormon researcher who has compiled the statistics and shows that, far from being the fastest-growing, Mormonism actually ranks 23rd among 149 Churches and Protestant denominations ranked in the U.S.

Stewart's detailed analysis of the growth trends of the Mormon Church is fascinating but unsettling. Let's not forget that a large percentage of those who go into Mormonism are former Catholics. What a good reminder for us to redouble our efforts to explain our Faith more intelligently, defend it more charitably, and share it more effectively.

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[sinkspur]

No sink, hatred IS the right word. ONLY hatred can explain your inviting me to LEAVE the Church.

OK. So don't leave the Church. Just shut the hell up about the Church being run by women and homosexuals, because that's complete and total nonsense, and you know it!

You ought to be trying to get folks IN to the Church. You might examine, with honesty, the issues that cause people to join a pro-life, patriarchal church that venerates Jesus both in word and symbols.

Are you talking about the LDS? The LDS is erroneous in doctrine. Is it good at marketing? Yes.

Or you can spew hatred.

Enough with the "hatred" bull. There's no hatred. There's stupid, on your part. But there's no hatred on my part.

[sinkspur]

Many of its leaders are homosexuals who like to delegate to the women to make them feel included. At my local parish there must be 25 women on the altar during Mass.

Well, why don't you volunteer to do some of the things the women are doing?

Or, are you scared of them?

At my parish, I help run the lector program, and we get a lot more women volunteers than men. So, we take them.

If men don't like women doing what men used to do, then they need to get off their butts and do what men used to do.

[Desdemona]

Just shut the hell up about the Church being run by women and homosexuals, because that's complete and total nonsense, and you know it!

Ummmm...I think it depends on where you are. And frankly, not many cardinals and bishops are displaying spine these days except the ones who make all the changes in direct opposition to Rome. Spine is a manly trait.

And really, sinky, the only people I know who really like all the changes which smack of protestantism are suburbanites who smile way too much and have no concept of culture off Broadway.

[Desdemona]

At my local parish there must be 25 women on the altar during Mass.

What for? At my parish, there's only the priests, the servers and a lector. Usually no Eucharistic Ministers at the 9. The choir sings off to the side. I hate it that way. Choirs sound and serve better when they are up in a choir or organ loft in the back. Oops. Sorry.

[sinkspur]

And really, sinky, the only people I know who really like all the changes which smack of protestantism are suburbanites who smile way too much and have no concept of culture off Broadway.

Please, Des. You're starting to sound like UR. Your smugness about "suburbanites" resembles the Democrat attack against the "rich" Republicans. It's beneath you, and you ought to know better.

The "changes" are not protestant; they're Catholic. What's gotten into you people who are jumping on the trad/schismatic bandwagon?

It's not a matter of "culture," dear lady. It's a matter of glorifying and worshipping God, and the Novus Ordo does that.

Bells-and-smells-and-Latin are incidentals. Let's not lose sight of what the Mass is. Letting UR and the other sedevacantists define the NO as some kind of "protestant" service is ridiculous. They know it, and you know it.

[Land of the Irish]

If men don't like women doing what men used to do, then they need to get off their butts and do what men used to do.

Why? Why can't the priest get his butt off the "presiders chair" and do his own job?

[Desdemona]

Your smugness about "suburbanites" resembles the Democrat attack against the "rich" Republicans. It's beneath you, and you ought to know better.

Where I live we all make fun of the suburbanites because they try so hard to be cool, they miss the point. The current hot spot in town is three blocks from my house and we invaded with people from West County every weekend who just try too hard.

The "changes" are not protestant; they're Catholic.

Pianos in church was NOT a Catholic invention. Sorry. Neither was dropping the Confiteor every week and as the most popular "composers" in the OCP books aren't even Catholic, your statement is ludicrous.

What's gotten into you people who are jumping on the trad/schismatic bandwagon?

I'm not going schismatic and I've always prefered the more traditional to the modern. I was born in the wrong century.

It's a matter of glorifying and worshipping God, and the Novus Ordo does that.

IMO, not very well. It looks a little too much like the presbyterian service in the church where I work. It's banal. The language from when I was a kid in the 70's was much stronger.

Bells-and-smells-and-Latin are incidentals.

I like the smells and bells, even if I am allergic to incense. I like the ornateness. Always have. And frankly Latin is 1000 times easier to sing.

[Loyalist]

Why? Why can't the priest get his butt off the "presiders chair" and do his own job?

If priests start acting as lectors, people might get the impression that priests have some sort of responsibility to teach the Church's interpretation of Scripture.

Now shut up and eat your YOPIOS.

[sinkspur]

Pianos in church was NOT a Catholic invention. Sorry. Neither was dropping the Confiteor every week and as the most popular "composers" in the OCP books aren't even Catholic, your statement is ludicrous.

No. Your statement focuses, again, on incidentals. Pianos, and a variety of Penitential Rites are not, IMO, things to get bent out of shape over. And, whether a composer is Catholic is also beside the point, if the music and words worship God.

Where I live we all make fun of the suburbanites because they try so hard to be cool, they miss the point. The current hot spot in town is three blocks from my house and we invaded with people from West County every weekend who just try too hard.

I don't know what this has to do with anything, except to prove my contention that you're a bit of a snob.

What the hell does "trying too hard" mean? They're not sufficiently blue collar?

[Desdemona]

Only one priest present per Mass at my local Novus Ordo parish. The other priests are in their slippers in the rectory reading the Sunday comics.

Oh, I'm sorry. Monsignor P brags that he's NEVER late for Communion.

[sinkspur]

Call me kooky

You're kooky, Bud. Who gives you the Eucharist is so incidental to Whom you are receiving.

But, things like Papal tiaras, buskins, white gloves for bishops, maniples, and amices were always important to the externals crowd.

Hinge your faith on the distance the priest extends his hands during the Consecration (finger-against-thumb, of course), and conniption fits result when those things are optional.

[Desdemona]

Pianos, and a variety of Penitential Rites are not, IMO, things to get bent out of shape over.

Then just what is?

And, whether a composer is Catholic is also beside the point, if the music and words worship God.

Actually it's not, when the church has a body of music so far superior in artistry and we're forced to use crap because it's the whim of some bishop somewhere.

What the hell does "trying too hard" mean?

It means that their lives are about being what is "in" and "hip", not substance. Real substance.

The Church is about substance. The real thing. The Church is strong and Mass, in the NO of the USCCB, does NOT reflect that.

[Desdemona]

Oh, and another thing, the Catechism DOES state that the organ is the instrument to be used during Mass.

[sinkspur]

It means that their lives are about being what is "in" and "hip", not substance. Real substance.

So the "current hot spot" is about substance? Real substance? Is beer more substantial than a peach bellini? Jagermeister more "blue collar" than Chambord?

The Church is about substance. The real thing. The Church is strong and Mass, in the NO of the USCCB, does NOT reflect that.

Well, to me, the NO does. You should seek out a Latin Mass, if that is to your liking. But you really ought to stop putting your personal disapprobation on the NO just because you don't like it. That's what you trads accuse the bishops of doing.

You're a snob, Des.

[Loyalist]

But, things like Papal tiaras, buskins, white gloves for bishops, maniples, and amices were always important to the externals crowd.

Is the Lord not deserving of the finest we can give Him?

[sinkspur]

I guess it is for those who deny the Real Presence. Might as well receive it from a Muslim, right?

That's the old Bud Duell I know.

Make a ridiculous statement, then carry it out five decimal places.