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THE MORMONS AREN'T TAKING OVER THE PLANET QUITE AS FAST AS WE ONCE THOUGHT
Envoy Magazine Blog ^ | 1/2/2003 | Patrick Madrid

Posted on 01/03/2003 9:12:05 PM PST by Polycarp

THE MORMONS AREN'T TAKING OVER THE PLANET QUITE AS FAST AS WE ONCE THOUGHT

Patrick Madrid&Action

EnvoyEncore

Today: Utah. Tomorrow: die Welt?

This morning's Salt Lake Tribune has an intriguing news item about the real versus perceived growth-rate of the Mormon Church. For decades, Mormons have touted their Church's rapid growth as a sort of implicit evidence that it is the True Church. Gordon B. Hinkley, the man at the top of the Mormon Church, echoes what many Mormons will tell you: that theirs is the "fastest-growing" Church in the world. Not so, says David Stewart, a Mormon researcher who has compiled the statistics and shows that, far from being the fastest-growing, Mormonism actually ranks 23rd among 149 Churches and Protestant denominations ranked in the U.S.

Stewart's detailed analysis of the growth trends of the Mormon Church is fascinating but unsettling. Let's not forget that a large percentage of those who go into Mormonism are former Catholics. What a good reminder for us to redouble our efforts to explain our Faith more intelligently, defend it more charitably, and share it more effectively.

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TOPICS: Apologetics; Ecumenism; Other Christian
KEYWORDS: catholiclist
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To: Wrigley
It is really tiresome. And attempting to shift the blame from bad LDS doctrine to the individual who realizes the fallacy is really getting old.
101 posted on 01/05/2003 3:13:57 PM PST by CARepubGal
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To: Wrigley
It just wasn't for you! Are there many paths to the truth? If not, don't you think this comment is a bit callous?

***

There is John Westley and John Calvin! You certainly do not agree with the Catholic's? So is it callous that of the various doctrines you believe Calvin path has the truth?

102 posted on 01/05/2003 3:14:42 PM PST by restornu
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To: drstevej
Any assessment of why ex-RC's are attracted to Mormonism?

I don't know Steve, I wasn't.

103 posted on 01/05/2003 3:20:48 PM PST by Mark17
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To: restornu
I agree with the Catholics on enough basic stuff to know that they are Christians.
We have the same idea who God is. Who Jesus is. Who the Holy Spirit is.

There are some doctrinal issues that need not be discounted.

The Mormons have a different idea who God is. Who Jesus is. Who the Holy Spirit it. It has a different idea in regards to pre-existance of souls. Eternal progression by men to become gods is a foriegn concept to Christianity.

There is one path to truth. And the Mormons are not on that path. Sadly, because many decent people will pay for that trip for eternity.
104 posted on 01/05/2003 3:30:36 PM PST by Wrigley
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To: Wrigley
I understand that is what you believe, so I believe different!

Are you saying if people don't comply with Wrigley's understanding of life and God! They are have NO rights and you would like to shun them?

This planet houses many different kinds of people and you just want your own kind! Is that right, Wrigely?

Sound like another group on this planet who want to convert or destroy those who don't conform to their acceptable list of theologies!

The things I was saying really had nothing to do this religion accept "It just was not for you!" other wise I was saying I dont' let that get in the way of being cordial!

BTW I think you are the one being callous! I was showing that inspite of people having diferences there is no need to be unfriendly! You were trying to take my olive branch and turn it into ire! Shame on you!

You say you are a disciple of Jesus Christ, so why do you don't honor his comandment?

John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know THAT ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

If you reply please answer the question! And not with another question! I don't recall the last time you have really give an answer. All you really do is ask another question, but you seldom give an answer to THE question! Please make sure the answer you give serves the Lord and not the "World according to Wrigley!"

105 posted on 01/05/2003 4:16:38 PM PST by restornu
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To: CARepubGal
ROTFLMAO!!!

You are delusional. I've had a temple recomend for over 10 years, lived in many different places, and have never been asked any such thing.
106 posted on 01/05/2003 4:17:07 PM PST by Grig
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To: CARepubGal
Raelians do not have one on one interviews asking if and how a couple has had sex. Mormons do.

Huh? We believe in living a chaste life, chastity before marriage, and full fidelity to our spouse after marriage. And we are asked if we are living a chaste life during the temple recommend interviews, but that is all.

107 posted on 01/05/2003 4:45:31 PM PST by Utah Girl
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To: CARepubGal
I think she is referring to LDS membership numbers and the difference between published and actual figures. As best I recall, between 20 & 30% of the folks on an LDS ward membership list actually attend. Latterdaylampoon.com has the numbers. The 30% figure is in Utah/Idaho/Arizona aka the Jello Belt. Sadly, the ward budget is a lot like a public school's budget: based on numbers.

I think the numbers you are quoting are off. I live in Utah, and during each ward conference we are told the percentage of people attending church (sacrament meeting), the percentage of full tither-payers, etc. In my ward last year, it was 80% attendance, not 30% attendance. 74% full tithe payers. The average attendance in the Wasatch area is 75%. Please do not denigrate those ward clerks who keep the records. They are honest people and would not inflate the numbers for the budget.

108 posted on 01/05/2003 4:52:31 PM PST by Utah Girl
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To: RnMomof7
You know, I get real tired of you saying that if we believe in the LDS church, that we haven't studied it really closely. That is simply not true. I have a testimony of Jesus Christ because of the LDS church, I was taught by my parents, by my Sunday School teachers to read the scriptures, to study them daily, to use commentaries to clarify, and to ask questions. And contrary to popular opinion amongst some here, yes, we can ask controverserial questions. But most of all we are urged to pray about what we read and study, and find out for ourselves. I try to have a set time to study the scriptures daily, sometimes I get there for the full time, other days I do not. But I do read from the scriptures daily.
109 posted on 01/05/2003 4:57:25 PM PST by Utah Girl
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To: Polycarp
Sadly, the link to the Atlanta Constitution Journal article is broken. I suspect that the "world's fastest growing church" quote omits a "one of the" right before it, or it is simply the words of the reporter.

I have yet to hear of any official claim of being "THE" fastest growing church, I've only heard gratitude to God for being A fast growing church. There are so many different ways to measure the speed of growth that I doubt there will ever be a single, uncontested "THE fastest"

It is a valid point that some members equate fast growth with being true, and that is not justified (for any church). Likewise, a slowdown in growth or even a shrinking membership doesn't prove anything either. I've seen time and again how the faithfulness (or lack thereof) of a congregation has such a huge impact on church growth in that area.

I fully expect that as we get closer to the second coming that the Lord will try his people and many weak ones will fall away, possibly causing a decline in the overall growth of the church (but an increase in faith). It has happened before in the early days and I expect it to happen again someday.

Interesting tidbit about how many converts are former RCs. In the early days of the Church it was only the Protestants who went out of their way to persecute Mormons. Catholics didn't join in the mobs. (Kind of ironic if you ask me.) Currently relations between SLC and the Vatican are friendly, LDS members played a big role in helping the Catholic World Youth Day go smoothly. Catholics are in a real bind up here in Canada. There are so few priests that several Christmas masses were canceled, and the death of a preist often results in the merging of parishes.

As for the article, it makes me very glad I took courses in statistics. When in come to North America, where the church has been established longest, they measure growth in terms of % growth, for the rest of the world where the church has not been established as long, and where the rate of growth is fastest, they measure raw numbers. Both have the effect of downplaying the actual growth of the church creating a distorted and biased view. A real researcher would establish one measure of the rate of growth and stick with it.

Even with all that however, it can not be denied that the growth of the church has surpassed everyone's expecation, and continues growing at a rate many wish they could achieve. The future for the LDS Church is bright.

The celebrating in this thread by the usual suspects only shows how petty, hostile and insecure they are.
110 posted on 01/05/2003 5:03:13 PM PST by Grig
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To: smevin; sinkspur
Wow, an LDS thread getting hijacked by Catholic vs Protestant bickering.

You have both restored my faith in miracles. :)
111 posted on 01/05/2003 5:06:29 PM PST by Grig
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To: Utah Girl
The numbers could be off for Utah anyway (Utah County would have a higher % attending than SL County most likely). The gentleman who collected the data did so based on recollections of former ward clerks & bishops which was probably right for a certain area. Locally, I have no idea what the attendance is but was informed budgets were based on # of people at the meetings.
112 posted on 01/05/2003 5:29:18 PM PST by CARepubGal
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To: Utah Girl
Also, the ward buget is set relative to the sacrament meeting attendance, not by the number of persons on the membership role.
113 posted on 01/05/2003 5:36:05 PM PST by Grig
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To: Grig
Thanks for your comments. I kind of shuddered when I heard about this article. The point is to convert people because they believe in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and want to go back to live in His presence. It does no good to baptize high numbers of people, if they do not realize that living the gospel entails a major lifestyle change, for the most part, and a change in beliefs.
114 posted on 01/05/2003 5:43:10 PM PST by Utah Girl
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To: restornu
Will the Catholics get to heaven like the Mormons?

Will the Moonies get to heaven like the Mormons?

Will the Scientologists get to heaven like the Mormons?

Will the Protestants get to heaven like the Mormons?

Will the Muslims get to heaven like the Mormons?

I understand that is what you believe, so I believe different!

I do not believe in the gospel according to the BoM. I deny it completely. I deny the Mormon belief of eternal progression to godhood. I deny the Mormon teaching that Jesus is Satan's brother. I deny the works needed to achieve the highest level of heaven. I deny the Mormon denial of the Trinty. Will I get to heaven? Are my different beliefs equally correct? Are you happy that I am on a path that in your opinion will lead me damnation?

I believe that if you continue on your belief in Mormonism, you will go to eternal punishment. You are on the wrong path. It glorifies man. When you believe that man may one day become god, it minimizes God.

Enough of the dodging rest. If Mormonism is the only true religion, how can you be happy if someone denies it?

This planet houses many different kinds of people and you just want your own kind! Is that right, Wrigely

And just what the sam hill do you mean by that? What is my own kind rest? What are you trying to say? Words mean things rest. Explain yourself here rest. What do you mean?

Sound like another group on this planet who want to convert or destroy those who don't conform to their acceptable list of theologies!

Where have I ever said that I wish to deny anyone his rights? Show me rest. You cannot even infer that from anything I have written. Rest, politically I lean towards the libertarians. I don't go that way completely because of the views on abortion and some drugs. You are free to practice your religeon. I am free to point out why its wrong. If you think that because I don't take a give peace a chance attitude, I am not being cordial and what to deny you some right. So be it. It just makes you look foolish

You say you are a disciple of Jesus Christ, so why do you don't honor his comandment?

John 13

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know THAT ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

How do we show love rest? Is love shown when we see a son, a daughter, a friend, a student doing the wrong thing and doing nothing? Is someone showing love by ignoring the wrong? CTR. Choose the Right. What does that mean? If I choose not to correct, am I choosing the right?

Love is shown in correction. My parents showed me love as they raised me by making me accountable for my actions. By disciplning me when I was wrong. I love them for it. I praise God for them. I am not showing love if I do not try to show you your errors. I would be showing hate.

Love is not saying "Good, you chose a different path, I hope you're happy" when you know where that path will lead.

rest, I believe in the Risen Savior. Who saved me. Who saved this sinner from the punishment I deserve. I thank God for the gift of His Son. Without Him, I am nothing. You do not know God rest. You think you do. But, sadly, you don't. I pray that God will open your eyes, so you may see Him clearly. He is so much more than what Mormonism teaches. So much more.

115 posted on 01/05/2003 5:56:45 PM PST by Wrigley
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Comment #116 Removed by Moderator

To: restornu
Steve, Wrigley and Elsie we really roll around in the mud at times, but we do wish each other good!

AMEN!!!


117 posted on 01/05/2003 6:59:42 PM PST by Elsie
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To: restornu
Yep we are friends :>)
118 posted on 01/05/2003 7:07:01 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Edward Watson
These are just some of the reasons why I will always remain within the LDS fold - no other religion can even come close to resolving these issues. Like it or not Mormonism has the answers for the thinking principled man.
 

Get yer answers: right here!

 
Romans 11:33-34
 33.  Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and  knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!
 34.  "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?"
 
Philippians 4:7
 7.  And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
 
Romans 16:17-18
 17.  I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
 18.  For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.
 
1 Corinthians 1:10
 10.  I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
 

 
1 Corinthians 14:29-38
 29.  Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.
 30.  And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.
 31.  For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.
 32.  The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.
 33.  For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.   As in all the congregations of the saints,
 34.  women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
 35.  If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
 36.  Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?
 37.  If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.
 38.  If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.
 
A multitude of prophets?  Not just ONE, LIVING one?

119 posted on 01/05/2003 7:12:50 PM PST by Elsie
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To: RnMomof7
Couplet-yes: But........ is it 'Scripture'?
120 posted on 01/05/2003 7:14:01 PM PST by Elsie
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