Posted on 12/29/2002 9:23:52 PM PST by PFKEY
Who does, if they don't?
Matthew 19:13-14
Children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked them, but Jesus said, "Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these."
Matthew 18:1-5I hope this answers your question :-D
The disciples approached Jesus and said, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.
Note additionally that the "144k" of Revelation are followed by:
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Revelation 7:9.
His mercy endures forever, Amen.
Limbo has never been a doctrine of the Church, it was a theological theory put forth by St. Augustine. The basis of his theory was an infant who dies unbaptized would have the stain of original sin on their soul. The official position of the Church is we trust these children to the mercy of God.
1-2 records returned of 2 matching NEWBORN .
24. "By design, this Catechism does not set out to provide the adaptation of doctrinal presentations and catechetical methods required by the differences of culture, age, spiritual maturity, and social and ecclesial condition among all those to whom it is addressed. Such indispensable adaptations are the responsibility of particular catechisms and, even more, of those who instruct the faithful:
Whoever teaches must become 'all things to all men' [1 Cor 9:22], to win everyone to Christ. . . Above all, teachers must not imagine that a single kind of soul has been entrusted to them, and that consequently it is lawful to teach and form equally all the faithful in true piety with one and the same method! Let them realize that some are in Christ as NEWBORN babes, others as adolescents, and still others as adults in full command of their powers.... Those who are called to the ministry of preaching must suit their words to the maturity and understanding of their hearers, as they hand on the teaching of the mysteries of faith and the rules of moral conduct.[Roman Catechism, Preface II; cf. ; .]"To view the context, please visit
2271. "Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.
This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.
Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the NEWBORN to perish.[Didache 2, 2: SCh 248, 148; cf. Ep. Barnabae 19, 5: PG 2, 777; Ad Diognetum 5, 6: PG 2, 1173; Tertullian, Apol. 9: PL 1, 319-320.]
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves.
Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.[GS 51 # 3.] "
Here is the one verse Calvinism killer:
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the DEVIL and his angels:
NOBODY was predestinated for hell, it wasn't even created for people. It was prepared for the devil and his angels.
Predestination is not for salvation, it is what already saved people are predestinated to.
Rom 8:29-30 For whom he did FOREKNOW, he also did predestinate TO BE conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Not only was the predestination predicated on God's foreknowledge (He KNEW it would happen but didn't MAKE it happen), but it wasn't salvation at al, it was the CONFORMING, et al, that was predestinated for those who were already saved.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated US UNTO the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
It's US (the saved) who are predestinated, UNTO the adoption.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Here it's the inheritance, and these are the only places any form of the word "predestinate" appear in scripture.
Man is depraved, but not totally. Otherwise no one would ever give to disabled vets. Every man who crossed paths with your wife would try to rape her.
Certainly the will is not hindered, God unquestionably gave man a free will.
Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, WHOSOEVER WILL COME after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely.
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
B. R. Lakin said that, "I believe in election. God voted for me, the devil voted against me, and now it's up to me to cast the deciding ballot!" Amen!
This is very similar to irresistible grace below, and is refuted by the same scriptures.
LIMITED ATONEMENT
The preposterous blasphemy that Jesus didn't die for everyone.
1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, specially of those that believe.
Believers are set apart from "all men". Jesus died for ALL MEN, not just the elect, but SPECIALLY for them.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.
That covers just about everybody (unless there's a spaceflight in progress perhaps).
IRRESISTIBLE GRACE
Anyone who sins knows that they can resist God. Either that, or God MAKES you sin, then it's not your fault and you couldn't be justly condemned.
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Lev 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his OWN VOLUNTARY WILL at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!
PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS
When taught as eternal security, this is true. However, that's PRESERVATION (by God), not perseverance (by man). Many Calvinists believe that they must hold out to the end or they're not really one of the elect. That is actually the reverse of eternal security. Other Calvinists believe that this is a promise that God won't let an elect person die before he can get saved.
Here's a real song sung by Calvinists, documented in Dr. Laurence Vance's book, "The Other Side of Calvinism":
Can you imagine a Christian singing and rejoicing to such horrible lyrics? This one is much better,
"WHOSOEVER WILL ... may come!"
Teno Groppi
Matthew 19:13-14 Children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked them, but Jesus said, "Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these."
The miss interruptions I see most people making is they interrupt the verse to say as these and ignore the such. To rephrase the verse it might be easier to understand the verse if we said "like these", but I really don't think it would make much different in a culture that has already predetermined in their mind that babies go to heaven. We think of Babies going to hell as something ungodly of God, even though they are not any better then grownups as far as the heart goes. Remember the heart is what condemms us, not our works, because our works are dependent on our heart. That why Jesus says some where else in scripture I never knew you,(basically I never knew your heart). God the father never gave me your guys heart to change.
The other verse mentioned
Matthew 18:1-5 The disciples approached Jesus and said, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.
The emphasis should be on the you and whoever not the Children. In other wise you should be as_______(fill in the blank) Children. I think Jesus is referring to the simplicity of a childs faith.
Again like I said at the beginning of my rant, I believe the question: “do babies go to heaven if they die? Is a red herring that Arminianists ask. I do believe if they really understood scripture they won’t be asking this question. The Arminianists spend to much time worshipping their babies instead of God. The only reason we should be having babies is because God instructed us as humans to go forth and populate the earth. Any other reason other then a reason that God gave us would be in sin. So I guess you can say a lot of babies are conceived out of sin since only about 50% or less are planned. But then again God doesn’t look at the works we do but at the heart. But not only is the idea that less 50% are conceived but that most women and some men want babies so that they can have something cuddly and cute. It’s like their ornament they put up on their tree of life to show others because that’s what is expected of them in their culture.
Well I’ve ranted and raved to much on this thread, I will bump it to Rnmomof7 to see if she wants to bump it to others, and I probably won’t response to any responses, but you can try to hook me though. I wasn’t planning on even getting this involved on any thread this week but you know they are contagious.
There are differing opinions on this subject within the Reform camp, most of them revolve around the verse in 2 Samuel 12:1-23 which I have no position on. I find it hard to take a position on just one verse or series of verses and like I said, I think you ought to be asking other questions in life concerning Scripture stuff, the depravity of the heart is a good starter.
No, just a Bible Believer. :-)
It's very interesting, all means all in my Bible!!!
It's also got that inclusive language, whosoever will.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say,
Come. And let him that heareth say, Come.
And let him that is athirst come.
And whosoever will,
let him take the water of life freely.
I have a question for you, if you don't mind.
I think your argument falls flat here, with your comment above.
How can it be that anyone is saved, or born again, who doesn't believe? Are you assigning salvation to nothing more than God picking them?
It's a contradiction, do you see?
You are saying they would have to go to Hell because of their sin nature, yet the same would remain in place were they not born again.
Unless of course you consider Romans, where Paul says without the knowledge of the law, sin is not imputed.
But you don't consider that.
Thanks in advance for your reply.
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