"If We Ignore the Mother, We Can't See the Child"

Zenit News Agency ^ | December 26, 2002 | Scott Hahn

[NYer]

Roots of Marian Devotion Go Back to Old Testament

ROME, DEC. 25, 2002 (Zenit.org).- Scholar Scott Hahn roundly rejects the idea held by some outside the Church that Catholics, by honoring Mary, somehow detract from God.

"The glories we honor in Mary are merely her own reflections of God's glory," says the author of books such as "Rome Sweet Home" and "Hail, Holy Queen." Here, the one-time Presbyterian minister spells out his ideas.

Q: Why do you say that Catholics should love Mary a lot more than they do?

Hahn: Because God does! And he wants us to love her as much as he does.

At the time of the annunciation, the angel Gabriel prophesied that all generations would call Mary blessed. In our generation, we need to fulfill that prophesy. We need to call her blessed. We need to honor her -- again, because God did.

Jesus himself, as a faithful Jew, kept the Fourth Commandment and
honored his mother. Since Christ is our brother, she is our mother too. Indeed, at the end of John's Gospel, Jesus named her as the mother of all of us beloved disciples. So we too have a duty to honor her.

If we look back into the biblical history of ancient Israel, we discover that the Chosen People always paid homage not only to their king, but also to the mother of the king. The "gebirah," the queen mother, loomed large in the affections of Israelites. And the evangelists are very much aware of this.

In Matthew's Gospel especially, we find Jesus portrayed as the royal Son of David and Mary as queen mother. The Wise Men, for example, traveled far to find the Child King with his mother.

We find the mother of the Son of David portrayed in a similar way in the Book of Revelation, Chapter 12. There she is shown to be crowned with 12 stars, for the 12 tribes of Israel. The New Testament writers, you see, were careful to show us Mary's important place in the kingdom, and how we should love and honor her.

In my personal life, I've found the Blessed Mother to be a great intercessor, as she was at the wedding feast in Cana.

Why should we love Mary more? Because of God's grace -- she exemplifies it! Because of God's Word -- she teaches it! And because she is God's masterpiece. The Scriptures provide too many reasons to love her; I couldn't list them in so short a space.

Q: What are the main objections that non-Catholics present against Marian doctrine and devotion?

Hahn: Some non-Catholics believe that, by honoring Mary, we're somehow detracting from God. We're not. The glories we honor in Mary are merely her own reflections of God's glory.

St. Bonaventure put it very well when he said that God created all things not to increase his glory, but to show it forth and to share it. Mary's sinlessness itself was a grace from God.

St. Augustine said: When God rewards us for our labors, he is only crowning his work in us. When God exalted the lowly virgin of Nazareth, he was crowning the greatest of his creations. When we honor Mary, we recognize God's work, and we praise him.

Others object to the Church's dogma of the immaculate conception -- that Mary was without sin from the very first moment of her life. They claim that, if this were true, she would have no need of a redeemer, no need for Jesus. But that's not true. Mary's immaculate conception was itself a fruit of Jesus' redemption.

Even today, we can see that Christ saves some people by deliverance and others by preservation -- some turn away from a life of crime, others are preserved from it by their good upbringing. Mary was preserved by a singular grace. Mary, you see, is dependent upon God for everything. She, by her own admission, is his handmaid.

Some very misguided people try to claim that Catholics make a goddess of the Blessed Virgin. But that is an abominable fiction. As much as we exalt Mary above our own sinful selves, we recognize that she is more like us than she is like God. She is still a creature, though a most wonderful creature. God himself exalted her to show us both the greatness of our human nature and the all-surpassing greatness of divine grace.

Even the early Protestant reformers never called for a wholesale rejection of the Marian dogmas. Luther and Calvin believed, for example, in Mary's perpetual virginity. Luther even believed in the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception, centuries before the Church solemnly defined it. Not until later generations would Christians come to such a far-reaching rejection of Mary's place in salvation history.

Q: How does Mary help us to understand the mystery of Christmas?

Hahn: Well, it's impossible for us to imagine the Christmas story without her. Her consent, her "yes," made that day possible. When God became man, he was born of a woman, born under the law. Christ is at the center of Christmas, but he chose not to be alone at the center. As a baby, he needed a mother to hold him. If we choose to ignore the mother, we can't see the Child.

In the stories leading up to Christmas, we encounter Mary as the model disciple. God found her humility irresistible, and we have to imitate her. God empowered her to love his Son as much as he deserves to be loved. And so we imitate her in that as well. Mary helps us to understand the mystery of Christmas because she received the greatest Christmas present ever, and she gave it to the world, just as we should.

Q: Why do you most converts to Catholicism have such an intense devotion to the Blessed Virgin?

Hahn: I can only speak for myself. I discovered the Catholic Church as not only the family of God, but as my family too. Mary is not only the mother of Jesus, but my mother too.

That's a wonderful discovery to make so late in one's life. So maybe we're making up for lost time! Or maybe we have a special affection for the practices that are distinctive to the ancient Christian faith -- the practices that we missed in our own upbringing.

[Jael]

At least give Jael her due

Thanks. But why call witchcraft magic?

There are no good witches.

[Jael]

Romans 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


Romans 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

[Cleburne]

I suppose I had in mind the distinction made in the book by the Elves as per magic: those abilities of the Elves (and by extension of course Elrond and Aragorn) were a sort of Divine bestowance- not particularly clear from LOTR, but more so in the Silmarillion. Gandalf is of a similar sort. At any rate, the powers of Sauron and the like are occult, and cleary wrong- those of the Elves might be so construed, though not by them, and not (I think) within the context of the book. By hobbits perhaps, who were certainly "magicless" folk (their handiness at disapearing a virtue of their size and natural quietness, of course).

[Jael]

There are no good witches. No not one.

[RnMomof7]

Since Mary has been glorified by God - that is, since she has been made like our first parents before the Fall, she possesses qualities which are lacking to us.
She has the additional privilege been removed from time and placed into eternity, since saints no longer dwell in time.

So you believe that the attributes of God are only because of where he dwells and not His person?

[Cleburne]

But are not the glorified bodies Paul refers to those of the saints after the Resurection? Which would seem to imply that the saints are not in possession of them at the moment. Thus, even if one might argue that we could "reach" the saints in their glorification, they aren't available at the present time.

[Cleburne]

I agree. Did I imply that there were?

[sitetest]

Dear Jael,

You're welcome.

"Thanks. But why call witchcraft magic?"

Because I usually try to use the terminology that folks use for themselves. I would hesitate to call "witchcraft" what Tolkien calls "magic".

Though I have a less-than-favorable view of non-Catholic theology, nonetheless, I try to call "Protestant" those who prefer to be called "Protestants", I try to call "Bible-only-Christians" those who prefer to be called "Bible-only-Christians", etc. It doesn't always work out that way, but it's a good general rule.

For the sake of civil discussion, it's usually a better starting place.

You wish to call all extranormal phenomena "witchcraft". You are asserting something not yet demonstrated by evidence. And frankly, I'm uninterested in the nomenclature at this point. I'm more interested to see if you would kindly answer my questions:

So, it's your belief that the use of magic themes (whether it's witchcraft, as in Rowling's Potter, or angelic beings and the like, as in Tolkien) in literature is always evil?

If one disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible with regard to this, how serious a disagreement is this? Is it a minor thing, moderately serious, virtually ruinous to salvation?


sitetest

[sitetest]

Dear Cleburne,

As you will see, though, that isn't Jael's argument. She regards the powers wielded by Elrond, Gandalf, and others, as evil.

You are making MY argument (and yours).

Let her make and defend her own argument.


sitetest

[A.J.Armitage]

Interesting that Martin Luther even believed many things about Our Lady. Wasn't until much later that all protestants began to hate her. Terrible shame.

That all Protestants hate Mary is a slanderous lie, and you know or should know it.

Repent.

[RnMomof7]

St. Paul says that none are righteous, but affirms that Abraham was righteous. So St. Paul's words are not cut-and-dried chess pieces - he is teaching something rather complex. He claims that righteousness is an external appellation and also an innate quality

Wide you need to understand scripture..Paul was saying that no man is born righteous..BUT just as we are counted righteous because of faith so was Abraham...

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
     Rom 4:4   Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
     Rom 4:5   But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

  Gen 15:6   And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Abraham was not born righteous..His faith was counted to him for righteousnes

Do you believe that Abraham was sinless? Is that your defination of righteousnes?

Mary was a sinner ..no one would know that better than she and here is her confession

Luk 1:46   And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,   

  Luk 1:47   And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Mary needed a Savior...BECAUSE she was like all of us born a sinner,,

[RnMomof7]

Since Mary was filled with grace, she was free of the stain of sin and her soul did not have to be separated from her body. Elijah is an example of such a person.

The Holy Spirit told us of Elijah that is how we know, did he also leave a scripitual record of Mary like that ?

[Joshua]

"And I have been told that refusing to accept certain premises as givens (i.e. that the deuterocanon is apocryphal) means that I have rejected an obvious truism. "

Would you like to compare what you've been told with the insults Polycarp has launched on this forum? If you can't defend what you believe maybe you should try HGTV website. I'm sure their spring planting tips won't offend you.

"That is, since Catholics aren't my brothers in Christ, it's a good thing this evil guy called wideawake is one of them. That way I don't have to defend his wicked, wicked ways. "

Don't put words in my mouth or assume to know my thoughts.

Being an Italian from New York I can assure you my circle of friends consist of many Catholics. Brothers in the Lord? I would imagine some are and some not. The same thing goes for my Prot friends. God knows. I can only be sure of myself.

"The fact is, Joshua, there are a good number of people on these boards - like berned or Chancellor Palpatine for example - who routinely use the nastiest language against Catholics imaginable"

Again I would point you to Polycarp. He makes these two look like pikers with the venom he spews.

"I've never seen you post to a Protestant who is calling the Pope an antichrist something along the lines of "Hey buddy, back off. They may be wrong - but you shouldn't throw around language like that.""

While I don't spend much time in here if you go back through my posts you'll find I have posted to Protestants that I felt crossed the line.

I don't think anything you've posted here is justification for what you posted. Implying that anyone who doesn't believe what you believe must be uneducated is hardly a way to make friends.

You seem very insecure. Maybe you should try MIRC. They have rooms exclusively for every denomination. You can sit with other Catholics and blow sunshine at each other all day. This wouldn't rattle your fragile little world.

[Jael]

She regards the powers wielded by Elrond, Gandalf, and others, as evil.

I simply agree with God that witchcraft is evil. There are no good witches.

[A.J.Armitage]

You really are presumptuous, aren't you? Read the exchange between Luther and Erasmus and you will know what Luther meant by the term, which is not necessarily what Augustine meant.

I have read some of it.

I suppose by "presumptuous", you mean I'm a Protestant who isn't eager to be taught errors by Catholics, but my question is entirely reasonable. Consider your first post on Pelagianism:

It is true that we are saved by God's race; one can believe this without becoming, as Luther claimed, Pelagian.

Which sounds an awful lot like you said Luther called everyone who believes in salvation by grace a Pelagian. No, it doesn't just sound like you said it, you said it.

After I corrected you, you said, "No, I do not think Luther was Pelagian."

So, naturally, I asked just what you think Pelagian means, since I can't think of a meaning to what you said which doesn't depend on thinking Pelagianism is the opposite of what it is. You're apparently terrified of just answering the question. Maybe you're afraid I'll be presumptuous enough to prove you wrong.

[Joshua]

Wow! Informative post. Now could you please direct us to someplace to verify what you just said is true?

RN, I'll bet you had no idea the Holy Spirit turns the power up a few notches when we leave this tent.

[Joshua]

"The Church does not teach that you are going to Hell. "

The official church teaching was that "There is no salvation outside the cathic church." When was that nullified?

[Joshua]

cathic=catholic

[sitetest]

Dear Jael,

Okay, so you've answered the first question. Any chance you could answer the other question I posed in #328?

If one disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible with regard to this, how serious a disagreement is this? Is it a minor thing, moderately serious, virtually ruinous to salvation?


sitetest

[Joshua]

"There are no good witches. "

Even Glynda from The Wizard of Oz?