"If We Ignore the Mother, We Can't See the Child"

Zenit News Agency ^ | December 26, 2002 | Scott Hahn

[NYer]

Roots of Marian Devotion Go Back to Old Testament

ROME, DEC. 25, 2002 (Zenit.org).- Scholar Scott Hahn roundly rejects the idea held by some outside the Church that Catholics, by honoring Mary, somehow detract from God.

"The glories we honor in Mary are merely her own reflections of God's glory," says the author of books such as "Rome Sweet Home" and "Hail, Holy Queen." Here, the one-time Presbyterian minister spells out his ideas.

Q: Why do you say that Catholics should love Mary a lot more than they do?

Hahn: Because God does! And he wants us to love her as much as he does.

At the time of the annunciation, the angel Gabriel prophesied that all generations would call Mary blessed. In our generation, we need to fulfill that prophesy. We need to call her blessed. We need to honor her -- again, because God did.

Jesus himself, as a faithful Jew, kept the Fourth Commandment and
honored his mother. Since Christ is our brother, she is our mother too. Indeed, at the end of John's Gospel, Jesus named her as the mother of all of us beloved disciples. So we too have a duty to honor her.

If we look back into the biblical history of ancient Israel, we discover that the Chosen People always paid homage not only to their king, but also to the mother of the king. The "gebirah," the queen mother, loomed large in the affections of Israelites. And the evangelists are very much aware of this.

In Matthew's Gospel especially, we find Jesus portrayed as the royal Son of David and Mary as queen mother. The Wise Men, for example, traveled far to find the Child King with his mother.

We find the mother of the Son of David portrayed in a similar way in the Book of Revelation, Chapter 12. There she is shown to be crowned with 12 stars, for the 12 tribes of Israel. The New Testament writers, you see, were careful to show us Mary's important place in the kingdom, and how we should love and honor her.

In my personal life, I've found the Blessed Mother to be a great intercessor, as she was at the wedding feast in Cana.

Why should we love Mary more? Because of God's grace -- she exemplifies it! Because of God's Word -- she teaches it! And because she is God's masterpiece. The Scriptures provide too many reasons to love her; I couldn't list them in so short a space.

Q: What are the main objections that non-Catholics present against Marian doctrine and devotion?

Hahn: Some non-Catholics believe that, by honoring Mary, we're somehow detracting from God. We're not. The glories we honor in Mary are merely her own reflections of God's glory.

St. Bonaventure put it very well when he said that God created all things not to increase his glory, but to show it forth and to share it. Mary's sinlessness itself was a grace from God.

St. Augustine said: When God rewards us for our labors, he is only crowning his work in us. When God exalted the lowly virgin of Nazareth, he was crowning the greatest of his creations. When we honor Mary, we recognize God's work, and we praise him.

Others object to the Church's dogma of the immaculate conception -- that Mary was without sin from the very first moment of her life. They claim that, if this were true, she would have no need of a redeemer, no need for Jesus. But that's not true. Mary's immaculate conception was itself a fruit of Jesus' redemption.

Even today, we can see that Christ saves some people by deliverance and others by preservation -- some turn away from a life of crime, others are preserved from it by their good upbringing. Mary was preserved by a singular grace. Mary, you see, is dependent upon God for everything. She, by her own admission, is his handmaid.

Some very misguided people try to claim that Catholics make a goddess of the Blessed Virgin. But that is an abominable fiction. As much as we exalt Mary above our own sinful selves, we recognize that she is more like us than she is like God. She is still a creature, though a most wonderful creature. God himself exalted her to show us both the greatness of our human nature and the all-surpassing greatness of divine grace.

Even the early Protestant reformers never called for a wholesale rejection of the Marian dogmas. Luther and Calvin believed, for example, in Mary's perpetual virginity. Luther even believed in the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception, centuries before the Church solemnly defined it. Not until later generations would Christians come to such a far-reaching rejection of Mary's place in salvation history.

Q: How does Mary help us to understand the mystery of Christmas?

Hahn: Well, it's impossible for us to imagine the Christmas story without her. Her consent, her "yes," made that day possible. When God became man, he was born of a woman, born under the law. Christ is at the center of Christmas, but he chose not to be alone at the center. As a baby, he needed a mother to hold him. If we choose to ignore the mother, we can't see the Child.

In the stories leading up to Christmas, we encounter Mary as the model disciple. God found her humility irresistible, and we have to imitate her. God empowered her to love his Son as much as he deserves to be loved. And so we imitate her in that as well. Mary helps us to understand the mystery of Christmas because she received the greatest Christmas present ever, and she gave it to the world, just as we should.

Q: Why do you most converts to Catholicism have such an intense devotion to the Blessed Virgin?

Hahn: I can only speak for myself. I discovered the Catholic Church as not only the family of God, but as my family too. Mary is not only the mother of Jesus, but my mother too.

That's a wonderful discovery to make so late in one's life. So maybe we're making up for lost time! Or maybe we have a special affection for the practices that are distinctive to the ancient Christian faith -- the practices that we missed in our own upbringing.

[Joshua]

"I suggest that you rethink talking to the dead. "

Why? We do it in here every day..;)

[Jael]

Great point. Sad though.

[Rambler]

Could you be honest for one moment and admit that the whole point was that witchcraft is real???

I haven't yet been dishonest, and do not call me a liar again. Yes, the whole point is that witchcraft is real. I don't think anyone on this thread disputes that. You still have evaded the question I asked you. Why if you are so opposed to a movie with occult undertones, would you encourage, repeatedly, the folks on the other thread to actually make contact with the occult. Can't you see the contradiction here? That's my point. As a Chrisitan, if I believed people were real witches, I would not encourage anyone to talk to them, even for a moment.

And here you are calling it a fantasy? People like you are the reason Harry Potter exists and makes money.

Yes, I believe the Harry Potter movies are fantasy and not real witchcraft, which is not to say I don't believe there are those who practice it. Have you even seen the movies? And no, Harry Potter has not made money because of me.

[Ex-Wretch]

When I was a blind Catholic and, whenever I ran into something I could not rebut with sound knowledge, I always used what the nuns taught us in grammar school ... "it is a mystery" (hehe)

No doubt the priests told them to use that universal defence :)

[Ex-Wretch]

defence = defense (I really did get an excellent readin, ritin and rithmetic RC education)

[RnMomof7]

:>)..

[RobbyS]

To us they seem ,indeed, to be "gods," but the angels are creatures of God, deriving their essence and being from Him. As they are purely spiritual beings, they exist "outside" time and space. St.Thomas proposed a hierarchy of such beings to correspondance to the many forms of creation. They are instruments of God's providence movings things to their ends and aiding--or in the case of the devils--diverting us in our pursuit of the good.

[RnMomof7]

So you believe that angels are omnipresent? It is not a quality unique to God?? You have attributed to Satan an attribute that belongs to God alone..I have come to the conclusion that you do not know who God is .
the attributes of God

1.         SELF-EXISTENT: God has no cause; He does not depend on anything for his continued existence.

a.   I AM WHO I AM (Ex. 3:14; see John 5:58)

b.   Life in Himself (John 5:26)

c.   First and Last, Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End; as the Beginning, God has no cause (Isa. 41:4; 44:6; 48:12; Rev. 1:8, 17; 2:8; 3:14; 21:6; 22:13)

d.   No God before or after Yahweh (Isa. 43:10)

2.         TRANSCENDENT: God is entirely distinct from the universe, as the carpenter is distinct from the bench; excluding pantheism (God in all) and animism (everything is a god).

a.   Separate from the world (Isa. 4:22; Acts 17:24)

b.   Contrasted with the world (Psa. 102:25-27; I John 2:15-17)

c.    Implied by doctrine of creation (Gen. 1:1; Isa. 42:5)

3.         IMMANENT: Though transcendent, God is present with and in the world; excluding deism (God is out there but not here).

a.   God is near, so He can be known (Deut. 4:7; Jer. 23:23; Acts 17:27)

b.   Bound up with God's omnipresence (Psa. 139:7-10; Jer. 23:24; Acts 17:28)

4.         IMMUTABLE: God is perfect in that He never changes nor can He change with respect to His being, attributes, purpose, or promises; excluding process theology, Mormon doctrine of eternal progression.

a.   Unchangeable (Psa. 102:26-27; Isa. 51:6; Mal. 3:6; Rom. 1:23; Heb. 1:11-12; James 1:17;  Heb. 13:8)

b.   God's relations with changing men spoken of as God changing (Ex. 32:9-14; Psa. 18:25-27)

5.         ETERNAL: God is perfect in that He transcends all time and temporal limitations, and is thus infinite with respect to  time.

a.   Duration through endless ages (Ps. 90:2; 93:2; 102:12; Eph. 3:21)

b.   Unlimited by time (Psa. 90:4; 2 Pet. 3:8)

c.   Creator of the ages ( i.e., of time itself; Heb. 1:2; 11:3)

d.   Implied by doctrines of transcendence, self-existence, and immutability

6.         OMNIPRESENT: God is perfect in that He transcends all space and spatial limitations, and is thus infinite with respect to space, with His whole Being filling every part of the universe and being present everywhere (not diffused through the universe, but present at each point in His fullness).

a.   The universe cannot contain God (1 Kings 8:27; Isa. 66:1; Acts 7:48-49)

b.   Present everywhere (Psa. 139:7-10; Acts 17:28; of Christ, Matt. 18:20; 28:20)

c.   Fills all things (Jer. 23:23-24; of Christ, Eph. 1:23; 4:10; Col. 3:11)

d.   Implied by doctrine of transcendence

7.         OMNIPOTENT: God is perfect in that He can do all things consistent with the perfection of His being.  God cannot do the self-contradictory (e.g., make a rock He cannot lift), nor can He do that which is contrary to His perfect nature (e.g., He cannot change, He cannot lie, etc.).

a.   Nothing too difficult (Gen. 18:14; Jer. 32:17, 27; Zech. 8:6; Matt. 3:9)

b.   All things possible (Job 42:2; Psa. 115:3; Matt. 19:26; Mark 10:27; Luke 1:37; 18:27; Eph. 1:11)

c.   God cannot lie, be tempted, deny Himself, etc. (2 Tim. 2:13; Titus 1:2; Heb. 6:18; James 1:13)

8.         OMNISCIENT: God is perfect in that He knows all things, including events before they happen.

a.   Perfect in knowledge, Job 37:16

b.   Knows the heart (1 Sam. 16:7; 1 Chr. 28:9, 17; Psa. 139:1-4; Jer. 17:10a)

c.   Knows all events to come (Isa. 41:22-23; 42:9; 44:7)

9.         INCORPOREAL: God has no body or parts, and is immaterial, being a simple and infinite being of spirit; excluding the Mormon doctrine of God as an exalted man.

a.   God is spirit (John 4:24)

b.   God is not a man  (Num. 23:19; 1 Sam. 15:29)

c.   Implied by doctrines of self-existence, transcendence, omnipresence, and creation.

10.       ONE: God is a perfectly unique and simple being, existing as one infinite Being called God.  There is therefore only one God, who is called Yahweh in the Old Testament, and who reveals Himself in the persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the New Testament; thus excluding polytheism, tritheism (belief in three gods), and subordinationism (in which Christ is a lesser god subordinate to the Almighty God).

a.   Only one God (Deut. 6:4; Isa. 43:10; 44:6, 8; 45:5-7, 21-22; Zech. 14:9; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Gal. 3:20; Eph. 4:5-6; 1 Tim. 2:5; James 2:19)

b.   All other "gods" are only "so-called," (1 Cor. 8:4-6; 2 Thess. 2:4)

c.   Moses was "as God," not God or divine (Ex. 4:16; 7:1)

d.   Satan, idols, and the belly are all false gods (Psa. 96:4-5; 1 Cor. 10:20; 2 Cor. 4:4; Phil. 3:19)

e.   Wicked judges called "gods" in irony, not to describe nature (Psa. 82:1, 6; John 10:34-36)

f.    Yahweh is Elohim (Gen. 2:4; Deut. 4:35, 39; Psa. 100:3 [thus excluding the view of Mormonism that Jehovah and Elohim are distinct beings])

g.    Implied by the doctrines of self-existence, transcendence, and omnipotence

11.       CREATOR: God is the One through whom all things have come into existence; by His unbounded power and knowledge He created finite existence ex nihilo and formed the universe as it now is.

a.   Created all things (Gen. 1:1; Psa. 33:6; 102:25; John 1:3; Rom. 11:36; Heb. 1:2; 11:3)

b.   Made all things by Himself (Isa. 44:24)

c.   Implied by doctrine of self-existence

12.       PERSONAL:  God, as the author of personhood in the created universe, cannot be less than personal Himself; thus He experiences relationships with other persons, or self-conscious beings.  Note that God may be more than personal, indeed, His infinite nature suggests that He must be.

a.   Scripture everywhere assumes the personhood of God in the use of personal pronouns, in recording Him speaking and acting willfully, etc. (e.g., Gen. 1:3, 26; Heb. 1:1-2; etc.)

b.   God gives Himself a name (Yahweh), and says "I am" (Exod. 3:14)

c.   Implied by doctrine of creation

13.       INCOMPREHENSIBLE: God is incomprehensible, not in the sense that the concept of God is unintelligible, but in the sense that God cannot be fully and directly known by finite creatures, because of His uniqueness and His infinitude.

a.   None like God (Ex. 8:10; 9:14; 15:11; 2 Sam. 7:22; 1 Chr. 17:20; Psa. 86:8; 1 Kgs. 8:23; Isa. 40:18, 25; 44:7; 56:5, 9; Jer. 10:6-7; Micah 7:18)

b.   Analogical language necessary to describe God (Ezek. 1:26-28; Rev. 1:13-16)

c.   God cannot be comprehended as He really is (1 Cor. 8:2-3)

d.   God can only be known as the Son reveals Him (John 1:18; Matt. 11:25-27)

14.       MORALLY PERFECT: The following are the moral attributes of God; they are listed here together because God's moral nature is perfectly unified, with no tension between His wrath and His love, for example.

a.   GOOD: God is morally excellent, and does only good (Gen. 1:31; Deut. 8:16; Psa. 107:8; 118:1; Nahum 1:7; Mark 10:18; Rom. 8:28)

b.   HOLY: God is morally transcendent, utterly separated from all evil, and perfectly pure (Ex. 3:5; Lev. 19:2; Psa. 5:4-6; 99:5; Isa. 6:3; 8:13; Hab. 1:12-13; 1 Pet. 1:14-19)

c.   RIGHTEOUS: God is perfectly moral in all that He does, doing everything right ( Isa. 45:21; Zeph. 3:5; Rom. 3:26)

d.   TRUE: God is perfectly truthful, and cannot lie (John 17:17; Titus 1:2; Heb. 6:18)

e.   LOVING: God's moral character is pure love, sacrificial giving for the true benefit of another (Deut. 7:7-8; Jer. 31:3; John 3:16; Heb. 12:6)

f.    WRATHFUL: God's moral perfection requires Him to show displeasure against anything which seeks to act contrary to its moral purpose, to judge that which rebels against His authority as Creator and Lord  (Psa. 103:8-9; Rom. 2:5; 11:22; Heb. 10:31)



The angels and Mary can not be every place at once..I know it cancels out alot of roseries .. unless you make her a godess equal to God
You have stolen glory from God..a topic for your next confession

[RobbyS]

We assign to Mary the qualities of a Glorified Body, which is to say what we all may hope to be after the Resurrection, and virtues of soul unsurpassed by any other saint. But an infinite gulf separates her from her creator. Lucifer sought to climb to equality and fell into darkness; Mary raises her hands and basks in the Light.

[RobbyS]

You seem to reject the very idea of angel. A angel is "omnipresent" only in the sense that "he" does not exist only in one place. That would require "him" to have a body like ours. But a religion that does not even accept the ubiquity of the body of Jesus would, of course, have trouble with the qualities assigned to angels.

[RnMomof7]

You seem to reject the very idea of angel. A angel is "omnipresent" only in the sense that "he" does not exist only in one place. That would require "him" to have a body like ours. But a religion that does not even accept the ubiquity of the body of Jesus would, of course, have trouble with the qualities assigned to angels.

Would you document for me ONE example of that? Just one

[drstevej]

***A angel is "omnipresent" only in the sense that "he" does not exist only in one place.***

Scripture showing bi-presence, multi-presence or omni-presence of any angel???

Angel means messenger, 'one who is sent'... not one who is always here, there and everywhere.

[RnMomof7]

We assign to Mary the qualities of a Glorified Body, which is to say what we all may hope to be after the Resurrection, and virtues of soul unsurpassed by any other saint. But an infinite gulf separates her from her creator. Lucifer sought to climb to equality and fell into darkness; Mary raises her hands and basks in the Light.

proof of this please...that is NOT what Jesus said

    Mar 3:33   And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

     Mar 3:34   And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!   

  Mar 3:35   For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

[RobbyS]

I wish you would be consistent. If Mary is in heaven, she has powers that we cannot imagine. If she is asleep in her grave, then she only dreams of the past. You have from time to time asserted that this is what Scripture says but without proving conclusively that it does. Rather it is a deduction from your theology.

[Ex-Wretch]

"We assign to Mary the qualities of a Glorified Body, which is to say what we all may hope to be after the Resurrection ..."

The biggest difference between the truly saved believer and the wannabee is in something as simple as your post. I have a calm assurance now that I never had as a Catholic. No more "I hope so." I can trust God and I can trust God's Word. I have peace now because the Prince of Peace is my Lord, I hear His voice and, most importantly, I obey Him. Not doctines and dogmas of men/institutions to be blindly adhered to, but a confidence in knowing that my God IS God. He cannot lie.

[RnMomof7]

If Mary is in heaven, she has powers that we cannot imagine.

She does NOT have the attributes of God...The purpose of creation is to glorify God..not steal his glory. I think she is a god to you

[unspun]

God bless us every one.

And, may our consciences be clear with Matthew 23.

[RnMomof7]

Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Amen

[RobbyS]

And what does he say? Simply That the claims of one's natural family--and in the middle eastern world they are and always have been FAR stronger than in our Anglo-Saxon world--are not as important as the claims of our brotherhood, the Church. But you avoid the real point, which is that we do not, as you claim, make Mary a goddess. As to the Bible, the first two chapters of Luke might be headed" Mary," because they clearly show what her place is in creation: the mother of My Lord. We single her out as the first among us simply because God has. Who is Abraham or Moses compared with this humble maiden?

[RobbyS]

Why do you insist on the flat equality of all saints? It defies Scripture, since the Bible is the story of heroes and villians. It is as though you cannot see that God gives his gifts in an unequal manner.