Cordial Discussion (P-Marlowe and pseudogratix) COMMENTS BY OBSERVERS.

[drstevej]

This thread is for COMMENTS on the "Cordial Discussion between P-Marlowe and Pseudogratix."

Please do not clutter the original discussion thread.

[drstevej]

Brigham Young's epitaph: "He's Bonafide! He's a suitor!!"

[Elsie]

There's a LOT of fine people been hit by trains."

[drstevej]

"It's a fool who looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart."

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

I think it was the "Reverend" Ralph Abernathy( but i'm not sure), who said the Holy spirit that led him away from the Bible to the Koran. Would this count as a "burning bosom" experience?

[T. P. Pole]

OK, I'll admit that I took two steps instead of one. I'll pretend that you are sincere here and play along.

In 549 I said:
The passage in Luke shows us that in at least one case, a feeling of a "heart burn" (or a burning bosom) accompanies an experience of realization that prophecy has been fulfilled in the resurrection of Christ. Is that acceptable?

In 552 you replied:
Yep.

I say that John 14:26 lists some of the ways the Holy Ghost interacts with us. Namely, that He teaches all things and brings all things to our remembrance. This is further qualified with the phrase "whatsoever I have said unto you" referring to Christ doing the saying.

In John 14:17 Jesus calls the Holy Ghost the "Spirit of truth." In John 15:26, Jesus again calls the Holy Ghost the "Spirit of truth," but this time adds another attribute - "He shall testify of me."

The experience in Luke is either a "teaching" event, a "remembering" event, or a "testifying" event. Christ "expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." When I hear the word "expound" I think of "explaining in detail." If they didn't know already, then that is a "teaching" moment. If they knew already, then it is a "remembering" experience. Either way, it was a "testifying" moment. Regardless, it is Christ that is doing the "whatsoever I have said unto you" part. (You keep using the word illumination. Does teaching or remembering cover that, or are you thinking of something else here?)

So, I suggest that the experience the disciples had was either a teaching event, a remembering event, or a testifying event. And Christ tells us that the Holy Ghost is involved in teaching, remembering, and testifying. Therefore, I suggest that the Holy Ghost may act on folks by causing their heart to burn.

And that is all I am suggesting. That the Holy Ghost can cause one's heart/bosom to burn during teaching, remembering, or testifying moments, especially when it is Christ that is teaching, causing to remember, or testifying.

If I was not LDS, but was an "acceptable" Christian, what would be the reply to this?

Note that nowhere (until now) have I mentioned adding new canon. All I am asking is how does the Holy Ghost interact with man, and what is His role in doing that? I suggest that (among other things) the "Spirit of truth" helps testify of truth, and that the Bible supports that.

[drstevej]

***Either way, it was a "testifying" moment***

Define testifying moment. However, this seems to be a very circuitous discussion.

Bottom line, LDS's burnin' bosom is a geiger counter -- it is without biblical support. It is an errant process - witness the LDS use it to authenticate spurious books (eg. Book of Abraham).

Guinea Pig is easier to swallow.

[restornu]

If you were filled with the Holy Ghost how would you know?

[fishtank]

I can think of three distinct times in my life of having a BOTB (burning of the bosom).

One was after reading an AA type publication where I was motivated to stop using drugs.

Second was a time where I heard a motivational speaker who prompted me to stop acting only for myself, but also to treat others with more respect.

NEITHER OF THE first two were messages that dealt with spiritual issues.

The third was the time when I was born again by faith in Christ. However, it was accompanied by a true faith brought by reading a true historical Scripture, not a madeup fantasy.

[fishtank]

But I also don't base my beliefs solely on my feelings, because some everyday experiences are pretty big BOTB events as well, like the first time I kissed a girl, like a rooler coaster ride, like the way I felt after the birht of our first child, etc.

[Elsie]

And that is all I am suggesting. That the Holy Ghost can cause one's heart/bosom to burn during teaching, remembering, or testifying moments, especially when it is Christ that is teaching, causing to remember, or testifying.

I think that perhaps it's not so much that Non-LDS believe that the BB is NOT an acceptable way to confirm things, but that many OTHER reasons could cause BB, therefore, being unable to pinpoint just WHAT caused the BB.

Out of a multitude of possible BB sources, just how does one 'prove' the the Holy Spirit is the causitive factor??

Some on these threads have said that Scripture alone is NOT sufficient to get adequate training in righteousness: there is the teaching, tradition, of the Church that enters in.

LDS say that things that cause questions can be explained by extra 'scripture' and/or the 'words' of their living (or past) 'prophet(s), while Protestants rely HEAVILY on all things being in the Bible; using such Scripture as......

KJV Acts 17:10-12
 10.  And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
 11.  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 12.  Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

and

KJV Acts 18:24-28
 24.  And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
 25.  This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
 26.  And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
 27.  And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
 28.  For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

So, when a group comes along and 'adds' to what we already have, or 'preaches a different gospel' than that which we already know, or suggest that we can 'understand' differently than time tested methods, we, understandably, are QUITE skeptical as to the product that they are touting.

[Elsie]

Guinea Pig is easier to swallow.

Does it taste like squirrel?

[Elsie]

Note that nowhere (until now) have I mentioned adding new canon.

---

It's not so much the single items of LDS belief that cause folks to stop and say "Whoa!", but when the whole of them are all combined together, they create LARGE hurdle to be jumped.

We are wary of incrementalism and 'feature creep'.

[Elsie]

"Well, I guess I'm the only one who remains unaffiliated."

This may be the thought of some lurkers out there, but, a day is coming, wherein you WILL have to make a choice of some type............

[restornu]

Good Morning!:)

Steve if you were filled with the Holy Ghost, please tell me how would you know?

[restornu]

Hoe about rabbit?

[Elsie]

I thought...... "Golly!  I can answer THIS, but as I looked, I found other things about being led as well, so I'll just post them, too.

 

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Led

 

NIV Romans 8:9-14
 9.  You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
 10.  But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
 11.  And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
 12.  Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.
 13.  For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
 14.  because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

 

 

NIV 1 Corinthians 12:1-3
 1.  Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant.
 2.  You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols.
 3.  Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

 

 

NIV 2 Corinthians 7:8-10
 8.  Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it--I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while--
 9.  yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us.
 10.  Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

 

 

NIV Galatians 5:14-25

14.  The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
 15.  If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
 16.  So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
 17.  For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.
 18.  But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
 19.  The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
 20.  idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
 21.  and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
 22.  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
 23.  gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
 24.  Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
 25.  Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

 

Filled

NIV Ephesians 3:16-19
 16.  I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,
 17.  so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,
 18.  may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
 19.  and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

 

 

NIV Ephesians 5:15-18
 15.  Be very careful, then, how you live--not as unwise but as wise,
 16.  making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.
 17.  Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.
 18.  Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

 

 

NIV Philippians 1:9-11
 9.  And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight,
 10.  so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ,
 11.  filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ--to the glory and praise of God.

 

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Lead astray....

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NIV 2 Corinthians 11:3-4
 3.  But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
 4.  For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

 

 

NIV Galatians 2:13
 13.  The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

 

 

NIV Revelation 18:23
 23.  The light of a lamp will never shine in you again. The voice of bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again. Your merchants were the world's great men. By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.

 

(More burning...)

 

NIV 2 Corinthians 11:29
 29.  Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?

[Elsie]

Romans 8:9-14
 12.  Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.
 13.  For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
 14.  because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

 

 

 

It's obvious he's talking to believers here, Brothers, is what he called them, and he's showing that even though we BELIEVE, we can STILL make wrong choices about how we will be led.

[JesseShurun]

if you were filled with the Holy Ghost, please tell me how would you know

By their good fruits you will know them. The rest send fruitcakes.

[T. P. Pole]

Define testifying moment. However, this seems to be a very circuitous discussion.

Bottom line, LDS's burnin' bosom is a geiger counter -- it is without biblical support.

I figured you would dodge a straight-forward question yet again.

Let's face it. There is nothing that a LDS could say about the Bible (or anything else religious) that would be acceptable to you.

I suspect that the lurkers can see how much twisting you are doing to avoid addressing the issue of how the Holy Spirit interacts with man. Certainly the Bible talks about it in John, and maybe even in Luke. Why is this so hard?

Is it the source? But doesn't most everything believed by the modern Christian church come from the Catholic church, which you likely disdain with similar feelings as you have against the LDS church?

I suspect that we will have to agree to disagree. Hopefully you can bring yourself to that.

[T. P. Pole]

I'll have to get back to you on your reply. My FReeping time has expired...