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Principles of Literal Bible Interpretation
Bible Truth ^ | Revised, Aug 2001 | Cooper P. Abrams, III

Posted on 10/29/2002 5:18:29 AM PST by xzins



TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: actual; allegorical; bible; figurative; interpretation; literal; real; symbolic
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To: SoothingDave
Again, a couch is useful for making a house thoroughly furnished. Does that mean that you only need a couch to furnish a house?

A house that only had a couch in it would not be throughly furnished. A house with only a couch would be like the bible with only one of the books in it. The bible is throughly furnished, it has everything you need in it to live the life God would have you live.

Now I have answered your question. Answer mine.

Where do you get the idea that it is not sufficient.

Becky

121 posted on 10/30/2002 9:11:34 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: SoothingDave
Again, a couch is useful for making a house thoroughly furnished. Does that mean that you only need a couch to furnish a house?

A house that only had a couch in it would not be throughly furnished. A house with only a couch would be like the bible with only one of the books in it. The bible is throughly furnished, it has everything you need in it to live the life God would have you live.

Now I have answered your question. Answer mine.

Where do you get the idea that it is not sufficient.

Becky

122 posted on 10/30/2002 9:13:56 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: SoothingDave
Again, a couch is useful for making a house thoroughly furnished. Does that mean that you only need a couch to furnish a house?

A house that only had a couch in it would not be throughly furnished. A house with only a couch would be like the bible with only one of the books in it. The bible is throughly furnished, it has everything you need in it to live the life God would have you live.

Now I have answered your question. Answer mine.

Where do you get the idea that it is not sufficient.

Becky

123 posted on 10/30/2002 9:16:59 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: SoothingDave
Again, a couch is useful for making a house thoroughly furnished. Does that mean that you only need a couch to furnish a house?

Dave this is beside the point. The point is the BIBLE, THE WORD OF GOD says a man is throughly furnished, and this was translated from a word that implies complete, using scripture to know how to live the kind of life God would have us live.

Now I have answered your question. Answer mine.

Where do you get the idea that it is not sufficient.

If this is double posting, I am sorry this thing is not running right today. While waiting for it to post I realized my first answer was not what you meant and I started over. But I am not sure what is posting and what is not. Becky

124 posted on 10/30/2002 9:22:39 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: theAmbassador; Revelation 911; xzins; fortheDeclaration
Exactly the point I was making to Corin, who insuinated that I am demon possessed!

Oh get over yourself Woody! How is that any different than the fact that you and your cellmates have for weeks been calling premillinialism (and Arminianism) a Satanic lie?

Don't be such a liberal. You can sling it out, but you can't take it. Look all you want, you won't find the verse that says "Blessed are the whiners..."

125 posted on 10/30/2002 9:32:12 AM PST by Corin Stormhands
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To: SoothingDave
Uh, yeah. Think about it. The Lord says "My flesh is true food" and "If you don't eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life within you."

We take that literally.

You cite a later verse about the "words" being "spirit" in order to come up with an interpretation that is non-literal. I don't see how this is anything other than symbolic, if it is not literal.

Every time this is discussed, the same verse is used to try to negate everything Jesus said. I don't understand why, so I ask. We are told that the "flesh" does not profit.

You yourself say this does not refer to the resurrection of the body. Then to what does it refer? Certainly not to Jesus' flesh, given "for the life of the world?"

Likewise we are told, over and over, that the "words" are "spirit," as if this is self-explanatory that the preceding verses are not to be taken in a literal fashion.

So I ask why "words" being "spirit" precludes a more literal interpretation of the preceding. Why? Logically, linguistically, why?

Okay, let's look again at what's happening in the passage.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Summarizing the previous ...

JESUS identifies Himself as the 'Bread of Life' and states catagorically that, in order to gain eternal life, one MUST eat His flesh and drink His blood.

The Jewish crowd is dismayed by these statements of JESUS and murmur among themselves about the fact that JESUS is apparently teaching cannibalism.

JESUS surmises their discomfort over the subject, but, rather than offering any explanation for His statements, forcefully re-emphasizes them.

Later, JESUS surmises that His disciples (a larger group than that of the 12) are also agonizing amongst themselves over this teaching (eating my flesh ... drinking my blood).

At this point, JESUS could have done with His disciples as He has done with the crowd. He could have offered no further explanation, or re-affirmed that He, indeed, was speaking of a LITERAL eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood.

However, JESUS does not do this. He offers the following explanation ...

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Now, I take this to mean that JESUS wasn't speaking of a PHYSICAL (or FLESHLY) eating/drinking of Him. He says that what He is teaching is of a SPIRITUAL eating and drinking of Him. He further identifies His words as the SPIRITUAL nourishment He speaks of, and that they, when eaten (or taken in for nourishment) will yield (SPIRITUAL) life. In this, I further believe, JESUS is speaking of BELIEF in Him and His teachings.

This would be consistent with JESUS other teachings regarding salvation (i.e gaining eternal life, non-condemnation, becoming the children of God, etc.) elsewhere as recorded in the New Testament. It is only in this one passage that He likens receiving Him and His words to ... eating His flesh and drinking His blood. In John 4, He likens it to drinking the water of life. However, again He is speaking of a spiritual drinking, rather than a physical drinking. In John 3, He likens it to being born again, but, again, not PHYSICALLY, but SPIRITUALLY.

All of these references to our reception of the gift of Salvation, as well as all others (of which there are many), are explicitly tied to the idea of BELIEF. Belief is the theme that you see over and over again as JESUS teaches on salvation.

OK. And why can this "spirituality" not include the belief in the Presence of Jesus in the elements of Communion?

I certainly wouldn't say that it cannot. I don't think that belief in the Real Presence is an issue upon which our salvation is hinged. I would say, however, that one would want to be sure to be taking in (accepting/believing) JESUS and His teachings.

For, ... as He has said ...

... My words are SPIRIT, my words are LIFE.

It certainly is not something that is discerned by the human eye, or by our PHYSICAL scientific instruments. It is something discerned by faith, discerned by and for the spiritual part of our nature. The "flesh," our bodies, do not profit any more than a small cracker and a sip of wine nourish our flesh. But our SPIRIT profits greatly from this action.

I agree.


126 posted on 10/30/2002 9:46:16 AM PST by Quester
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To: theAmbassador; Corin Stormhands; xzins; Iowegian
And I was lurking at the time you showed us your true character, so I know the level you drag threads to.

I havent spoiled a thread in a long while - in fact I apologized to woody a while back - must be that with that unforgiving black forest in your eye sockets you missed that. Your comments about AOG is uncharitable at best - repent ye spawn of satan for you are surely an enemy to the right ways of the Lord.

p.s. Hi woody

127 posted on 10/30/2002 9:57:20 AM PST by Revelation 911
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To: Corin Stormhands; Matchett-PI; CCWoody; RnMomof7; drstevej; the_doc; Jean Chauvin
Oh get over yourself Woody!

If I remember, you went into a flying fit when you were accused of being someone else and then were later actually proved to be that person. Should I not now demand that you be suspended for engaging in the same crap you hypocrite?

If you wish to believe that I am Woody, then fine. I'm tired of answering the same accusation from hypocrites like you.

How is that any different than the fact that you and your cellmates have for weeks been calling premillinialism (and Arminianism) a Satanic lie?

Let's just assume that I have called Premillennialism and Arminianism a Satanic lie. That is an entirely different thing than calling individual Arminians or Premillennialists demon possessed. I would be calling false doctrines Satanic lies. You would be calling ambassadors for Christ demon possessed. I don't expect that you will be able to see the difference.

I had hoped that we could have a civil discussion, but you have yet to make a single contribution on this thread or the others I've seen you post on the last few days, other than to directly slander people. Good show actually dragging this thread down to the mud wallow.

You are nothing more than a childish baby who cries to mommy when people actually speak the truth about you. Be off now to mommy to cry about how unfairly you are being treated.
128 posted on 10/30/2002 10:18:07 AM PST by theAmbassador
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To: SoothingDave
You know this isn't true. Paul writes of those who do not "discern the body" eating their own damnation.

Paul was writing to the Corinthians, who were having a riotous old time during their LOVE FEAST, which they would attempt to follow with a Lord's Supper Service.

The behaviour of the Corinthians during the LOVE FEAST was quite unchristian. It was like a church pitch-in, but the well-off wouldn't share what they had with the poor. Some folk were gorging themselves on food, while others barely got anything. Some drank so much that they were drunk by the time the Lord's Supper came around.

By the time the Lord's Supper was to be served, ... what you had was a bunch of folk with decidely non-christian attitudes. The rich were gluttonous, drunk, greedy, and lording it over their poorer brethren, while the poor were feeling abused, unloved, and probably a little envious of their more well-off brothers and sisters. Some were so stuffed (or drunk), they would fall asleep during the Lord's Supper service.

It was to this misbehaviour that the apostle Paul addressed his comments. He encouraged the Corinthians to be more christian during the LOVE FEAST ... to share with one another ... to wait on one another ... to save for home the satisfaction of their appetites.

As to the Lord's Supper, he encouraged a solemn and reverent approach. He further encouraged them to place, formost in their minds and hearts, the remembrance of JESUS' sacrifice for them, ... the breaking of His body ... the shedding of His blood.

Finally, he warned them that, to continue to desecrate the Lord's Supper service, as they were doing, giving no thought as to the Lord's body and blood, which had been sacrificed for them, would yield chastening from the Lord, which, some of them, even now, were experiencing.

There are other examples, which you have been shown before. Really.

Where are these others ?


129 posted on 10/30/2002 10:27:15 AM PST by Quester
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Again, a couch is useful for making a house thoroughly furnished. Does that mean that you only need a couch to furnish a house?

A house that only had a couch in it would not be throughly furnished. A house with only a couch would be like the bible with only one of the books in it.

OK, thank you. So you have basically agreed with me that a sentence that says that "x" is useful for making something perfect does not mean that only "x" is required to make something perfect.

I fail to see why making "x" equal to "Scripture" is supposed to change the meaning of the sentence.

The bible is throughly furnished, it has everything you need in it to live the life God would have you live.

This is what you keep saying, but you have not shown where Scripture says this. Scripture says it is useful for one to live perfectly. It does not (see above) say that only it is necessary to live perfectly.

Besides, you keep slipping around. It is the man of God who is being "thoroughly furnished" here. Scripture is not called "thoroughly furnished."

Answer #2:

Dave this is beside the point. The point is the BIBLE, THE WORD OF GOD says a man is throughly furnished, and this was translated from a word that implies complete, using scripture to know how to live the kind of life God would have us live.

Who is arguing what "thoroughly furnished" means? I certainly am not. What we are arguing is what a man needs in order to be thoroughly furnished. You say, without textual evidence, and in clear contradiction to the rules of the language, that if the subject is "Scripture," a sentence which would not imply sufficiency, suddenly does.

Now I have answered your question. Answer mine.

I thought I did.

Where do you get the idea that it is not sufficient.

Keen observation. This means that one can readily see the confusion that reigns among the folks who believe that Scripture is all they need. If the Calvinists and Arminians, the Sabbath worhippers and the Lord's Day worshippers can not agree on such things, then it is clear that the Scripture alone can not serve as a sufficient authority.

Not to mention the illogic in claiming that only Scripture is an authority, when Scripture makes no such claim.

And I repeat, you are the one who wants this passage to claim sufficiency for Scripture. It is up to you to show how the language leads you to that conclusion.

SD

130 posted on 10/30/2002 10:33:35 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: St.Chuck
No mention doesn't necessitate no belief. Scripture appears to be an abridged version of events. Sole reliance on it could be limiting. See John 20:30-31 and John 21:25.

Necessarily abridged, but selected for the purpose of providing us whatsoever we need as regards our Christian belief.

John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.


131 posted on 10/30/2002 10:40:34 AM PST by Quester
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To: theAmbassador; xzins; RnMomof7; Revelation 911; fortheDeclaration; JesseShurun
If I remember, you went into a flying fit when you were accused of being someone else and then were later actually proved to be that person.

Oh, do tell. Who do you think I am? Was? Is?

I know a few weeks ago Woody () and Rn thought I was Jesse. But you were, was, is wrong.

If you can take the time off from praying on the street corner, cough up your "proof" that I'm someone else.

Ping me when you find it. I'm outta here.

132 posted on 10/30/2002 11:05:21 AM PST by Corin Stormhands
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To: theAmbassador
Nevertheless, I do charitably assume that some of the carnal knot-heads in that world really are saved.

Perzackly. Some Arminians are regenerate but confused.

But if they are relying on their Arminian understanding of Christ for their salvation, then they are just tares sown among the wheat. As Martin Luther put it, such a person "knows nothing of grace and has not learned Jesus Christ aright."

133 posted on 10/30/2002 11:08:18 AM PST by the_doc
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To: the_doc
hogwash
134 posted on 10/30/2002 11:46:57 AM PST by xzins
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To: theAmbassador
Nevertheless, I do charitably assume that some of the carnal knot-heads in that world really are saved.

Perzackly. Some Arminians are regenerate but confused.

But if they are relying on their Arminian understanding of Christ for their salvation, then they are just tares sown among the wheat. As Martin Luther put it, such a person "knows nothing of grace and has not learned Jesus Christ aright."

(This is why I think we should be rather sobered to notice the vicious character of the defenses which have been offered by some Arminians for their soteriological position. They really do act as though their salvation depends on us Calvinists being wrong.

If they were a bit more honest, I think we could get some of them to admit that this is what they really do believe. And if they believe that, they are wrong about everything of real importance.)

135 posted on 10/30/2002 11:53:13 AM PST by the_doc
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To: the_doc; theAmbassador; CCWoody; Matchett-PI; OrthodoxPresbyterian; RnMomof7
"This is why I think we should be rather sobered to notice the vicious character of the defenses which have been offered by some Arminians for their soteriological position."

I have long thought this as well. xzins has come out with some rather ~awful~ raping of the scriptures out of desparation to prop up his premillennialism overagainst the calvinists who are arguing amillennialism.

So thoroughly does he hate that Calvinists are making the amillennial argument that he will intentionally distort clear passages simply as an effort to be contrary to Calvinists.

I really don't think he actually believes these gahstly interpretations. Perhaps he does, but they are so ~whacked~ out that it is difficult for me to believe that anyone can believe this garbage.

I also don't think he actually buys into them as he is back to his old testy self. This is his standard M.O. when he is backed into a wall -also it is typically when Rev and Corin/Ward show up to join in the bickering.

It might also demonstrate why he has accused Ambassador and myself of not answering his question when we had already answered it over and over and over again. Then there was his assertation that we amillennialists actually believe and/or said that there will be death in the New Heavens and the New Earth. I must admit, that I was a bit baffled by these rants.

Then there was the fact that he called the fact that Isaiah 65 tells us that God's people will live only as long as trees a "lie from the pit of hell". That was really really sad.

I've been willing to play along -all the while scratching my head at the insanity coming out of his computer- for the sake of the lurkers.

I think the reason many pre/pan mil's here have leaned/become/entertained amillennialism has just as much to do with what the pre-mill's here are saying as it does with the arguments the amillennials are putting forth.

So, I'm all in favor of his continued presense here on these threads. It really does hurt his case nearly every time he posts.

Jean

136 posted on 10/30/2002 12:27:28 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: the_doc; theAmbassador; CCWoody; Matchett-PI; OrthodoxPresbyterian; RnMomof7
"This is why I think we should be rather sobered to notice the vicious character of the defenses which have been offered by some Arminians for their soteriological position."

I have long thought this as well. xzins has come out with some rather ~awful~ raping of the scriptures out of desparation to prop up his premillennialism overagainst the calvinists who are arguing amillennialism.

So thoroughly does he hate that Calvinists are making the amillennial argument that he will intentionally distort clear passages simply as an effort to be contrary to Calvinists.

I really don't think he actually believes these gahstly interpretations. Perhaps he does, but they are so ~whacked~ out that it is difficult for me to believe that anyone can believe this garbage.

I also don't think he actually buys into them as he is back to his old testy self. This is his standard M.O. when he is backed into a wall -also it is typically when Rev and Corin/Ward show up to join in the bickering.

It might also demonstrate why he has accused Ambassador and myself of not answering his question when we had already answered it over and over and over again. Then there was his assertation that we amillennialists actually believe and/or said that there will be death in the New Heavens and the New Earth. I must admit, that I was a bit baffled by these rants.

Then there was the fact that he called the fact that Isaiah 65 tells us that God's people will live only as long as trees a "lie from the pit of hell". That was really really sad.

I've been willing to play along -all the while scratching my head at the insanity coming out of his computer- for the sake of the lurkers.

I think the reason many pre/pan mil's here have leaned/become/entertained amillennialism has just as much to do with what the pre-mill's here are saying as it does with the arguments the amillennials are putting forth.

So, I'm all in favor of his continued presense here on these threads. It really does hurt his case nearly every time he posts.

Jean

137 posted on 10/30/2002 12:28:32 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: the_doc
Perzackly. Some Arminians are regenerate but confused.

I do think that we have all at one time or another been spiritual knot-heads. But I also find that the Reformed churches do a much better job of untying the knots than the Arminian churches. Wrong doctrines are pretty much worthless for anything other than getting the knot tighter and making people think that they are being wonderfully spiritual when they are actually being obstinately carnal. I think that this verse is rather sobering: I interpret this to mean that speedily will be 1000 years according to the Premillennialist. I just couldn't help that jab. Premillennialism is obviously a joke; it induces a wrong comprehension of so much of the scriptures.
138 posted on 10/30/2002 12:34:53 PM PST by theAmbassador
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To: Jean Chauvin; Revelation 911; RnMomof7; xzins; ShadowAce; theAmbassador
also it is typically when Rev and Corin/Ward show up to join in the bickering.

Please Jean, read the thread will ya?

I made a side comment to my friend Shadow (who also avoids this forum now - and does a better job than I). I had a (rare, but) friendly joke with Rn and I left.

I would have stayed off this thread too. (I really do have too much to do and with FR crawling this forum is more annoying than usual). But the "Ambassador" pinged me back, and as usual drew first blood. The very tone of his post was combative, not the least bit civil like he says he wants.

I follow these threads out of interest, but certainly not out of any desire to dialogue with any of you. For grins I throw an occasional stink-bomb, but I'm not part of the debate.

139 posted on 10/30/2002 12:44:09 PM PST by Corin Stormhands
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To: Corin Stormhands; Jean Chauvin; xzins
I follow these threads out of interest, but certainly not out of any desire to dialogue with any of you. For grins I throw an occasional stink-bomb, but I'm not part of the debate.

Typical. You had nothing to say before, you have nothing to say now. Your purpose remains to troll and disrupt. Thanks for being honest enough to finally admit it.

At least x sticks around and tries to be productive. I can respect him for that.

140 posted on 10/30/2002 12:53:59 PM PST by Wrigley
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