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Principles of Literal Bible Interpretation
Bible Truth ^ | Revised, Aug 2001 | Cooper P. Abrams, III

Posted on 10/29/2002 5:18:29 AM PST by xzins



TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: actual; allegorical; bible; figurative; interpretation; literal; real; symbolic
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To: RnMomof7
You make the assumption it was a common belief..but it was not "mandatory " for a Catholic to believe it untill the 1200's..It was a matter of personal faith.

Once again, you fail to distinguish between "transubstantiation" as an explanation of the belief, and the belief itself.

Catholic Christians always have believed in the Real Presence. The philosophical constructs used in the definition of transubstantiation are now the accepted way of describing in more detail the miracle.

Or are you one of those who think that nobody believed things fell to the ground before Newton defined gravity?

The Epistles are the doctrinal teachings of the new church written by those that were there..not one reference to the bread being the actual body of Christ..a rememberance to be treated solomely like the passover..a holy time of Gods presence..but no mention that even the disciples that were there understood it to be the actual body..

You know this isn't true. Paul writes of those who do not "discern the body" eating their own damnation. There are other examples, which you have been shown before. Really.

SD

101 posted on 10/30/2002 7:06:33 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Iowegian; Matchett-PI
Just exactly what are you an ambassador for? It sure isn't Christ.

That's exactly what the Pharisees told Jesus when He told them they were the sons of Satan. Am I to infer that you are one of those Pentecostal howler monkeys who babbles in strange tongues, leaps over tall chairs, and has seizures on the floor in a demonic charade of true Pentecostalism and calls ambassadors for the kingdom of God possessed?

However, as I have never posted to you before, or received any nasty slurs that I actually am possessed with a demon, I will in charity answer your question: I am an ambassador for the kingdom of God.
102 posted on 10/30/2002 7:14:18 AM PST by theAmbassador
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To: Dutch-Comfort
I thought I had given you a syllogism, so I back-tracked and looked up the word in the dictionary:
Syllogism- a deductive scheme of a formal argument consisting of a major and a minor premise and a conclusion (as in "every virtue is laudable; kindness is a virtue; therefore kindness is laudable")
2 : a subtle, specious, or crafty argument

My apologies, I perhaps was insufficient in my presentation. Allow me to try again. Let us start first with a hypothetical:

For the sake of discussion lets say that we have a stone of infinite size.

Major Premise: The smooth red Stone exists and its size is infinite (unknowable)
Minor Premise: We can feel its texture, see its color
Conclusion: Its possible to know the stone without knowing its size


Now on to the more complicated real life syllogism:

Major Premise: God exists, he transcends all understanding. He put skin on and came to earth to know us in the person of Jesus Christ, he divinely gave us his will in the Bible so that we can know him.
Minor Premise: We can know him because he was a person and walked a mile in our shoes, and because he speaks to us in his divine writings
Conclusion: We can have a personal relationship with the Living God, as the infinite reached down to touch us through the personhood of Jesus.


It may have been a mistake to bring in mathematics to the discussion, as it is so easy to get sidetracked on whole other topics. I brought it in because it seemed like a simple way to explain the concept. (I started it so I will finish it, but I will try not to go on too long)

I respectfully disagree with you that limits are finite. They are a mathematical method of assessing the infinite, yet by definition they are infinite.

An example:
sin(x) = (2 x / pi) ((4 - y) / 3)(( 16 - y) / 5) ((36 - y) / 35) ...(((2 n)^2 - y) / ((2 n)^2 - 1)) ....

The dots mean it goes on to infinity. Through analysis of limits mathematics we know it equals the sin of x.
Major Premise would be that the limit is equal to sin (x), minor premise would be we can assign a value to the infinite for practical purposes, conclusion it is possible to know the infinite to a degree (because as you point out it is an approximation.)

I must say, I was a little taken aback regarding your comment that I wasn’t familiar with the teachings of Christ, what the peace of God transcending all understanding has to do with it, and I confess I don’t know what issues you are talking about regarding the Talmud

I would like to close with a word picture type story (apologies if you have heard it):

Two men are vying for the affections of a wealthy man’s daughter. One man is a scientist, the other is an engineer. The culture is such that the father arranges the marriage, and the father just can not decide between the two....so he sets up a test. They arrange the wedding at a football stadium. the daughter is in her wedding dress in the home team’s end zone, standing just past the goal line. The scientist and the engineer stand on the visitors goal line. The father lays out the ‘test’ to allow the most clever man to be his new son in law. He lays out the rules: I will blow this whistle at which time each of you can move half the distance to the goal. The first man to kiss my daughter will be her husband. He blows the whistle once... the engineer moves to the 50 yd line, the scientist stays put. Blows it again, the engineer is on the 25 yd line, the scientist stays put smiling.

...so the father calls time out, goes up to the scientist and says:”Don’t you want to marry my daughter? what gives?” The scientist explains: “I am the most clever man. I can see the solution, that by moving half the distance, one will always be the half of some distance away, one will never get to your daughter that way; I wait here, as moving forward won’t get me to her, and you likely will bring her to me as the most clever man, as I have figured out your riddle”. So the Father asks the engineer, “what do you say?”..the engineer replies,” I will get there, for all practical purposes”

......I would surmise sir, that you are a scientist of some sort. Finite small beings like us may not be able to know the unsearchable depths of God, but I invite you to take a few practical step forwards through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and get to know him in a practical way.
103 posted on 10/30/2002 7:15:21 AM PST by Scarlet_Pimpernil
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Again, something is called, in Scripture, "useful" or "profitable," and you think that means that it is "all we need.

No, I say it is all we need because of the "throughly furnished" part.

Again, do you only ned a couch to "thoroughly furnish" a house?

Scripture says that itself is "useful" for being "thoroughly furnished." That's all.

Do you understand the difference between something being essential and somethign being sufficient? Cause all this Scripture says is that Scripture is essential, that with it a man may be mad perfect. You bring your preconceived notions into the text here, instead of reading what it says.

I'll try again, headlights and turnsignals are useful so that a car may be thoroughly equipped. Does this sentence mean that a car need only have headlights and turnsignals? Doesn't a car also need, wheels, and engine, brakes, etc?

In the James verse, we PROVE we are throughly funished by our handling of the trying of our faith.

Is the sentence structure the same as in 2 Tim or not?

SD

104 posted on 10/30/2002 7:16:56 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Irisshlass
mandatory

Maybe I am misunderstanding you.....but are you saying the bible is not necessary at all?

the second clause refers to the man of God (priest, minister, preacher)

If the man of God may be throughly furnished by scripture, why could not anyone else be. I believe we are to apply scripture to our own lives, and IF this is talking about priests, etc. it could also be applied to anyone.

also its saying the man of MAY be complete, equipped...not that scripture is in itself..

Isn't this the argument that was used done in Florida by the Dems. during the election 2 yrs ago:) No offense.

If read properly may be means can be. Greek lexicon.

When you apply this same principle to James 1:4 you have to say we only need steadfastness...

Two different topics, two different implications.

Becky

105 posted on 10/30/2002 7:23:12 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain; irishlass
If the man of God may be throughly furnished by scripture, why could not anyone else be.

That is called begging the question. The man of God needs Scripture to be thoroughly furnished. That is what the Scripture says.

What it does not say is that the man of God only needs Scripture. That is what we are asking you to show.

When you apply this same principle to James 1:4 you have to say we only need steadfastness...

Two different topics, two different implications.

So, then, we need to add a new rule to the "principles of Bible interpretation?" If the subject is Scripture, then "essential" means "sufficient." If the subject is anything else, like steadfastness, then "essential" only means "essential."

Why do you read the two differently? Could it be that you want the Scripture to say that it is sufficient?

SD

106 posted on 10/30/2002 7:32:29 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
<>Maybe I am misunderstanding you.....but are you saying the bible is not necessary at all? <>

Catholics do believe that Scripture is the Word of God..

<>also its saying the man of MAY be complete, equipped...not that scripture is in itself..

Isn't this the argument that was used done in Florida by the Dems. during the election 2 yrs ago:) No offense.<>

I'll correct that..the man of God may be complete..

same argument as in Flordia? LOL...how in the world did you arrive at that? LOL

I see...lol...ok...you can say Al Gore and his bandits indulged in hyperbolizing the election the same as those who hope to find sola scriptura in 2 Tim 3:16...
107 posted on 10/30/2002 7:48:20 AM PST by Irisshlass
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To: SoothingDave; irishlass
The word that was used for perfect in these two verses were two different words implying two different meanings.

In 2 Tim the work perfect implies "complete."

In James the word perfect implies "complete in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character.

2 Tim. "throughly" = to finish out. to equip fully. Becky

108 posted on 10/30/2002 8:06:11 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: RnMomof7
You make the assumption it was a common belief..but it was not "mandatory " for a Catholic to believe it untill the 1200's..It was a matter of personal faith.

Apparently it still is. :o)

The Epistles are the doctrinal teachings of the new church written by those that were there..not one reference to the bread being the actual body of Christ..a rememberance to be treated solomely like the passover..a holy time of Gods presence..but no mention that even the disciples that were there understood it to be the actual body..

No mention doesn't necessitate no belief. Scripture appears to be an abridged version of events. Sole reliance on it could be limiting. See John 20:30-31 and John 21:25. I would also point out that understanding can take on evolutionary processes. You mentioned earlier that Peter did not have the same kind of conversion that Paul did. Peter's was an ebb and flow, a slow lifting of the curtain, which I think is the more common way (as opposed to being knocked off your horse, blinded, and exposed to disembodied voices. Yet, Paul also confesses his experience with uncertainty in 1 Cor.13:12. Thus, it is not excluded from the realm of possibility that institutional understanding can follow the precedent set by the great apostles. In the case of John 6:64, it is evident from the nonexistence of any kind of controversy, that a different interpretation than Quester's was applied to the verse in question. That was my only point regarding Post #27.

109 posted on 10/30/2002 8:07:15 AM PST by St.Chuck
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To: SoothingDave
Protestants...There is light coming through a sliver of what appears to be a hole!

Catholics...I don't see any light or a hole!

Protestants..mark it down as sola scriptura anyway!
110 posted on 10/30/2002 8:12:10 AM PST by Irisshlass
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To: theAmbassador; Iowegian; xzins; Corin Stormhands; fortheDeclaration
I am an ambassador for the kingdom of God.

road apples!

Matt 22:37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

38This is the first and greatest commandment.

39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.

40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

"[1.] It is implied, that we do, and should, love ourselves. There is a self-love which is corrupt, and the root of the greatest sins, and it must be put off and mortified: but there is a self-love which is natural, and the rule of the greatest duty, and it must be preserved and sanctified. We must love ourselves, that is, we must have a due regard to the dignity of our own natures, and a due concern for the welfare of our own souls and bodies."

"[2.] It is prescribed, that we love our neighbour as ourselves. We must honour and esteem all men, and must wrong and injure none; must have a good will to all, and good wishes for all, and, as we have opportunity, must do good to all. We must love our neighbour as ourselves, as truly and sincerely as we love ourselves, and in the same instances; nay, in many cases we must deny ourselves for the good of our neighbour, and must make ourselves servants to the true welfare of others, and be willing to spend and be spent for them, to lay down our lives for the brethren." Matthew Henry -

just how is this accomplished by engaging in attacks ?

..........hey....when you talk, woodys mouth moves.

Blessings

Rev911

111 posted on 10/30/2002 8:14:11 AM PST by Revelation 911
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
In 2 Tim the work perfect implies "complete."
In James the word perfect implies "complete in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character.
2 Tim. "throughly" = to finish out. to equip fully. Becky

Yes, yes, yes. But you are still missing the point. What is it that says to you that ONLY Scripture is needed to make the man complete? The verses say that Scripture is useful or profitable. Not that it is sufficient.

So where do you get the idea of sufficiency from?

If a couch is useful to make a home perfectly equipped, do you only need a couch to furnish a home? Answer this question, and you may come to see.

SD

112 posted on 10/30/2002 8:23:58 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Revelation 911; theAmbassador; xzins; fortheDeclaration
..........hey....when you talk, woodys mouth moves.

Hmmmmm....one speaks, the other interprets? Now where have I heard that before?


113 posted on 10/30/2002 8:28:56 AM PST by Corin Stormhands
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To: SoothingDave
So where do you get the idea of sufficiency from?

Where do you get the idea that it is not sufficient.

What does "complete" mean?

Becky

114 posted on 10/30/2002 8:37:48 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: SoothingDave
So where do you get the idea of sufficiency from?

Where do you get the idea that it is not sufficient.

What does "complete" mean?

Becky

115 posted on 10/30/2002 8:37:56 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: Revelation 911; Corin Stormhands; xzins; Matchett-PI; CCWoody; RnMomof7; drstevej; the_doc; ...
just how is this accomplished by engaging in attacks ?

Exactly the point I was making to Corin, who insuinated that I am demon possessed! And exactly the point I am making to xzins who is bearing false witness against us Amillennialists.

This is exactly why I declared that I was willing to be civil if Corin would not insinuate that I am demon possessed. Yet, somehow Corin felt the need to say in rebuttal to my argument that he got a vaccination after taking the Woody challenge. So, take your beam, figure out that several of your Premillennialist buddies are swallowing camels, and wack them on the back of the head with it before they choke to death.

..........hey....when you talk, woodys mouth moves.

If you say so. I am very tired of constantly addressing this accusation. It is quite obvious that none of you Premillennialists have an answer to a single argument I've made, which is why you constantly drag these discussions down to your base levels. And I was lurking at the time you showed us your true character, so I know the level you drag threads to.

But, then I am used to being hated by the Arminian world. Light has no fellowship with darkness. Nevertheless, I do charitably assume that some of the carnal knot-heads in that world really are saved.
116 posted on 10/30/2002 8:43:51 AM PST by theAmbassador
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
So where do you get the idea of sufficiency from?

Where do you get the idea that it is not sufficient.

Keen observation.

But that is beside the point. You are the one claiming that 2 Tim teaches Sola Scriptura. Where do you get the idea of sufficiency from, using just the text. Explain it to me.

What does "complete" mean?

I am not arguing that the man of God can not be complete. I am not arguing that the man of God doesn't need Scripture to be complete.

I am arguing that he does not need only Scripture to be complete. Why do you make this argument?

Again, a couch is useful for making a house thoroughly furnished. Does that mean that you only need a couch to furnish a house?

Answer the question, please.

SD

117 posted on 10/30/2002 8:52:54 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
Again, a couch is useful for making a house thoroughly furnished. Does that mean that you only need a couch to furnish a house?

A house that only had a couch in it would not be throughly furnished. A house with only a couch would be like the bible with only one of the books in it. The bible is throughly furnished, it has everything you need in it to live the life God would have you live.

Now I have answered your question. Answer mine.

Where do you get the idea that it is not sufficient.

Becky

118 posted on 10/30/2002 9:08:52 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: SoothingDave
Again, a couch is useful for making a house thoroughly furnished. Does that mean that you only need a couch to furnish a house?

A house that only had a couch in it would not be throughly furnished. A house with only a couch would be like the bible with only one of the books in it. The bible is throughly furnished, it has everything you need in it to live the life God would have you live.

Now I have answered your question. Answer mine.

Where do you get the idea that it is not sufficient.

Becky

119 posted on 10/30/2002 9:11:17 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: SoothingDave
Again, a couch is useful for making a house thoroughly furnished. Does that mean that you only need a couch to furnish a house?

A house that only had a couch in it would not be throughly furnished. A house with only a couch would be like the bible with only one of the books in it. The bible is throughly furnished, it has everything you need in it to live the life God would have you live.

Now I have answered your question. Answer mine.

Where do you get the idea that it is not sufficient.

Becky

120 posted on 10/30/2002 9:11:17 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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