Pope To Add New Mysteries to the Rosary

Catholic World News (Via Diocese Report) ^ | October 14, 2002 | Staff

[Polycarp]

did you happen to watch Journey Home last night on EWTN?

We do not have TV/cable, but I'm sure I can listen to a rebroadcast on WEWN shortwave. I'll look it up, thanks!

[Desdemona]

Okay, we'll try this again.

Whoever the pope in charge at any one time is the final arbiter of what the church teaches during his reign. So JPII may contradict someone who came earlier.

The statement should be, "At this time, the church teaches."

At least that was the way I was taught.

[SoothingDave]

Dave, you were one of the ones who railed against people who said that you worshipped Mary. Then when this document(from 1909) was found you backed off and said it was ok to use the word worship with Mary. You basically said "We worship Mary but we don't WORSHIP Mary."

You can say "worship" if you mean what is meant by the ancient usage in English. Since this usually turns into nothing other than an invitation for fundies to play "gotcha," rather than think about things, the use of the word has curtailed.

At no point was latria offered to other than God

That people at one point were able to distinguish between different meanings of "worship" is no reason to think that the Church prescribed "latria" for Mary.

SD

[eastsider]

Have you never heard of a dictionary? Try the American Heritage online:

> pray

INTRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship. 2. To make a fervent request or entreaty.

TRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer. 2. To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: Pray be careful. 3. To make a devout or earnest request for: I pray your permission to speak. 4. To move or bring by prayer or entreaty.

[SoothingDave]

What would stop the Vatican from making an up to date translation?

#1, the sheer volume of material and number of languages in the world.

#2, the pointlessness of it (the existing translation is fine, except for fundies who don't want to be taught)

#3, fundies would get their knickers in a twist saying we "changed" our teaching.

#4, there's no pleasing some people.

SD

[ELS]

However, this translation is directly from the Vatican's own web-site. I would think that they know how to properly translate Latin into English.

The Eskimos have a dozen or two words that mean igloo. Even if they "accurately" translated any of them into English, they would only have one English word that corresponded to their more precise word. Do all of their words for igloo mean exactly the same? Of course, not!

As Catholicguy pointed out, there are at least three Latin words that correspond to the one English word worship. This was more commonly understood when people used to be taught Latin in school. The three Latin words have slightly different, but distinct and precise meanings. Those who are rational and intellectually honest can see that Mary is treated differently than God because she is different than God.

[SoothingDave]

Whoever the pope in charge at any one time is the final arbiter of what the church teaches during his reign. So JPII may contradict someone who came earlier. The statement should be, "At this time, the church teaches."

At least that was the way I was taught.

You were taught poorly. Popes can not contradict each other on essential teachings of the Faith. On non-essential things, they are free to.

A Pope must uphold that we offer latria only to God, and hyperdulia to Mary. All Popes, all the time.

Now a pope 100 years ago may think that "worship," properly understood is a decent translation of "hyperdulia." And one today may prefer "veneration."

But the teachign remains the same.

SD

[biblewonk]

Every hail Mary contains the name of Jesus. You object to that?

Yes. In Catholicism Jesus seems only to exist to exalt Mary. The greater we make Jesus, the greater Mary must be. She is the object of some huge percentage of the focus. That percentage differs from one RC to the next but in many cases it is probably 80 percent.

[Woodkirk]

Right here at Matthew 24:26 -- "Wherefore if they shall say . . . he [Jesus] is in the inner chambers, don't believe them".

Why do you believe those who Jesus said not to believe?

[ksen]

So JPII may contradict someone who came earlier.

Even in matters of Faith and Morals?

[biblewonk]

Very very interesting, thanks for the post. Probably falling on deaf ears here though.

[ksen]

Why is it so hard to find a copy of this particular document in Latin?

Next time you are called back to Rome would you see about getting a hold of a copy in Latin?

Thanks Dave. ;^)

[biblewonk]

Could you perhaps be thinking "Mantra" , like the Budhists use ?

Actually that's a good example. Saying John 3:16 over and over when you should be asking a personal living God for help or praising a personal living God for some blessing for or just praising who He is, as learned from the scriptures, is chanting.

[MarthaB]

>>It is not communication at all is it? It is as if you are something other than a person who is listening to another person.

It occurs to me that if you wanted to understand how Catholics understand the rosary, perhaps you could get something of the idea by omitting the Hail Mary's altogether. Just take 20 minutes with your Bible and look up the Joyful Mysteries... The angel coming to Mary, Mary visiting Elizabeth, Jesus being born and placed in the manger, Jesus being brought to the temple as an infant, and then the finding of Jesus in the Temple. Just read each passage, and you don't have to find every reference for Jesus' birth, one would do, but read and then spend a few minutes thinking about each one, one at a time, asking God to show you what he wants you to know about each of these events... to think about Jesus being born as a helpless baby, in a chilly stable... And with each of the Scripture readings, you could start with an Our Father (Lord's Prayer) as we do, then just spend 5 minutes thinking about each of these events, and at the end as you move to the next one, to thank and praise God, pray, "Glory be to the Father and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and shall be forever..." Then you could add even the Fatima prayer... "Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to you in heaven, especially those who most need your mercy." That is really praying for all people and I think is a prayer close to Jesus' heart since he said, I think in John, that he wants all to be saved... so we are praying for what is the desire of Jesus' own heart when we pray that (thought the actual words are not from the Bible but were allegedly given by Mary to some children at Fatima.

If you spend time thinking about the mysteries and pondering them in your heart, you may find that God shows some new truth that you hadn't thought about before, like one facet in a gem that you hadn't noticed... or you may yourself then be moved to pray to ask God to help you to act on what he has shown you... Help me to have the humility of Jesus who was willing to be born in a stable, the King of Heaven, to be born in a stable for me, for love of me and in complete love and trust in the Father. You see how communication can take place...

If you prayed the mysteries of the rosary without the actual repetitions of the "Hail Mary's" you might still have a better understanding of how Catholics really pray the rosary, and by leaving out the Hail Mary itself, I would not think this would be in any way "against" your own beliefs on prayer? To ponder the Scriptures for a few minutes...

Today being Tuesday, we do the Sorrowful Mysteries, thinking of Jesus in his agony in the Garden, being scourged, crowned with thorns, carrying his cross and then dying for us. To spend 20 or 25 minutes on the sorrowful mysteries in this way would give you an idea of what many Catholics are really doing when they pray the rosary... there is communiction going on, between God and the person praying.

MarthaB

[Desdemona]

Well, I'm a post-Vat II brat. Remember.

[biblewonk]

I know there must be a reason for growth, in some similar way, that she has such a hold on you for so long.

This and the rest of your post and your previous posts are excellent examples of chants. You continuously say the same things in my general direction but you are in no way speaking to me. :-D

[SoothingDave]

Well, I'm a post-Vat II brat. Remember.

As am I. If you think about what you said, it would be no way of organizing a Church to pass down the Faith. If each new pope got to decide everything new by himself, with no regard for what came before.

SD

[Desdemona]

When I did think about it, in context, this pope signed a document that took the teachings of several people and all of scripture and put it all together.

Okay?

[Codie]

There can be no doubt that Jesus lived perfectly the fourth commandment: Honor your father and mother. If Christ lives in us as he did in Paul (Galatians 2:20) ought not we venerate Christ's mother as he did, especially since veneration was offered to angels in Joshua 5:14 and Daniel 8:17? How much greater than the angels is Mary! The Catholic Church honors Mary in imitation of her Son.

[SoothingDave]

OK. :-)

SD