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One thing that is getting lost in the translation is that in RC teaching, Salvation is not realized until we have passed to our eternal reward. That's the goal. No one is just "saved" because they read the bible and believe what it says. There's a lot more involved.

Salvation is bought with a price...the blood of Jesus Christ shed upon the cross. You must ask what we are saved FROM. We are saved from the just penalty of our sinfulness. The atoning sacrifice of Christ, the perfect Lamb of God, satisfies the just requirements of the absolute righteousness God demands. In one sense, salvation occurred at Christ's death, and in another it will be fully realized at judgement. My point is that this sacrificial atonement is avoidable given the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception because God could simply suspend original sin in His elect (regardless of definition) and eliminate the need for atonement. If, as your church maintains, Mary was completely sinless, she didn't need a savior. She was righteous and could stand before God.

And who, exactly, are the "elect"? Everyone is invited. That would mean that all people are the elect. Whether or not any one person partakes is a matter of free will, not God's.

That's a whole other debate, Des. Suffice it to say at this time that the language and context when the term "elect" is used seems to clearly indicate that it is a group separated from the whole, not a term applied to the whole.

And I guess I don't understand why, when God sent His only Son to us, he would have chosen just anyone to be the vessel of passage.

I guess I don't understand then why God would choose a Pharisee who persecuted His Son's followers to become an Apostle to the Gentiles. His ways are not our ways.

We'll try this again. I'm having a nasty sinus day, and am kind of dizzy, so I'm pinging a few others just to make sure I'm typing straight. If I'm in error they will correct me.

Salvation is bought with a price...the blood of Jesus Christ shed upon the cross.

Jesus Christ died, his blood was shed if you prefer, to offer the world eternal life in heaven. He open the gates. But, that isn't all. We have a part to play in out lives. In order to achieve salvation, we, the flock, must hold up our end of the bargain. He told us that we must do His will on earth in order to achieve that. That means prayer, sacrifice and a life lived worthy of Christ. Charity, humility, poverty of heart and spirit are necessary.

You must ask what we are saved FROM. We are saved from the just penalty of our sinfulness.

We have Salvation from everlasting death. That would be hell. Well, and purgatory, but if you live right, that could be a short stay.

The atoning sacrifice of Christ, the perfect Lamb of God, satisfies the just requirements of the absolute righteousness God demands.

Atoning is not Christ's sacrifice to make. That is ours. Christ's sacrifice was the ultimate one, one which none of us can ever repay - he gave his life for us. The least we can do is his will.

In one sense, salvation occurred at Christ's death, and in another it will be fully realized at judgement.

Salvation occurs daily as we pray and live life in Christ. We will not know how successful we are until we pass to the other side to be judged. Christ's death just opened the gates of the kingdom. Our actions determine whether or not we are allowed to pass through them.

My point is that this sacrificial atonement is avoidable given the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception because God could simply suspend original sin in His elect (regardless of definition) and eliminate the need for atonement. If, as your church maintains, Mary was completely sinless, she didn't need a savior.

God could, but He didn't. And whether or not Mary needed a savior is between her and God. As she was not divine, I think she did a savior. Aside from that, the gates of heaven were closed to her, still, if Christ hadn't died.

She was righteous and could stand before God.

I'm sure she does. Regularly. She already had all the grace which we, in our lives, try to receive.