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Most of the time I just read what others are saying. In fact the only time I've posted is when I've found someone in some kind of leadership role being less than honest.

In posts 200,250,255,290, and 415 you both are discussing the character of Scott Hahn.

I was away from the Church for many years. When I told a friend I began attending Church again she was thrilled until she found out it was not a Catholic Church. This began a debate that lasted for some time, and included her giving me a tape named "Scott Hahn conversion tape".

The following is a portion of my response to my friend, pertaining to some of what Scott said on this tape:

One last point, but this is a very important point because it speaks of Scott Hahn’s character. I believe it is more important for Scott to have people convinced of his point of view than to tell the truth. I am very much interested in the truth and will go where it leads me. I have a big problem with people who try to manipulate or fool people into their point of view.

Let me explain. Here I am not arguing for or against the Catholic Church’s viewpoint of Mary. However, what Scott presents here I consider intellectual dishonesty because he is deliberately trying to trick people. He says on the tape:

I’ll give you two points, and if you can answer them, I’ll give it to you (referring to the Catholic viewpoint of Mary, talking to a Protestant friend).
Point 1. Christ obeyed the law perfectly right? Of course.
The Ten Commandments sum up that law, right? Of course.
The first command that deals with our fellow relations is “Honor your Father and Mother”. When Christ fulfilled the law, He fulfills that command “Honor your Father and Mother”. The Hebrew word for honor, ‘Kabad’, means glorify. So Christ honors, He bestows honor, He glorifies, He bestows glory upon His Mom, right?
What’s point 2?
We imitate Christ. The Catholic Church isn’t exalting Mary, Jesus beat her to it. We’re just echoing and imitating our Lord. All we’re doing is what Christ has been doing, as a perfectly faithful obedient loving Son.

Scott Hahn indicates he is a scholar and has taught in seminary. He talks about his study of Scripture. He knows about taking Scripture out of context because even in this tape he accuses others of doing just that (pertaining to the Body and Blood of Christ).

So let’s look at the context of this Scripture. The law is being given to the Jewish people. Do not murder. So the Jewish people, in order to obey this commandment, must not murder.
Do not commit adultery. So the Jewish people, in order to obey this commandment, must not commit adultery.
Honor your Father and Mother. So the Jewish people, in order to obey this commandment, must honor, bestow glory, and exalt their Father and Mother?
Is that right? The average Jewish person is to bestow glory and show exaltation to his Father and Mother? I don’t think so.
Here is the thing…..In Hebrew there is more than one meaning for the word ‘Kabad’. One is to honor, to bestow glory and reverence, and other is to respect. So let’s fix this one.

Honor your Father and Mother. So the Jewish people, in order to obey this commandment, must honor, by showing respect for, their Father and Mother.

Now that this is in the proper context, Jesus fulfills this commandment by respecting his Father and Mother.

Catholic Church members receive most of their religious information from the Church leaders, Catholic Catechisms as children, and people like Scott Hahn, rather than going themselves to the Scriptures. I believe that it’s a fair statement to say that most Catholic Church members do not read the Bible, and of those that do a large percentage do little more than dabble at reading Scripture. The Catholic Church, in general, doesn’t do much to encourage individuals to read the Bible (I freely admit that most of the time I didn’t pay attention, that I was ‘dead wood’, in the Catholic Church. However, I believe I’m correct about this. If you disagree then let’s discuss it).
Scott used a trick to try to convince people who do not know much about Scripture into believing that this specific Scripture indicates Mary should be bestowed glory and that she should be exalted. This Scripture does not indicate that Mary should be glorified or exalted. If you look closely at what he said, “The first command that deals with our fellow relations”. Fellow relations means human relations. And besides, it makes absolutely no sense to tell the Jewish people to glorify, bestow glory, and exalt their Dad and Mom.

This is my opinion. I believe, because of his stated background and experience, that Scott didn’t make a mistake. I believe he is purposely being deceptive in order to convince people of his point of view. I’m on a quest for the truth, and tricks like this disturb me greatly. Please be very careful with what you believe from this man.

There is no way he would attempt this in a debate format with one of the reformed Church debaters. But then again, it is his speech and his audience.

<> I appreciate being singled-out for one of your few comments. I don't think Mr. Hahn was trying to deceive or trick folks. He was reasoning by analogy. He in no way intended to trick or fool others.

I don't know whether or not Hahn has debated others. If he has, he has likely wiped the floor with them.

As to your most Catholics don't read the Bible, that is likely true. The same holds for most Protestants. One of the biggest fallacies existing is that protestants know scripture. They really don't.

Individual protestants know what their local ministers tell them about the Bible. Woe betide that man in the congregation who dares disagree with his Minister. Although both, protestant doctrine tells us, are led by the Holy Spirit to ascertain the truth of God's word, it is the local Minister who is the Pope for his local ecclesia.

You traded one Pope for millions. Not a good deal :)

>For those raised Catholics and now have abandoned the Ark of Salvation for antother Church, 2 John 10 (I am doing this from memory; so I may be off a verse or two).<>

Catholic Church members receive most of their religious information from the Church leaders, Catholic Catechisms as children, and people like Scott Hahn, rather than going themselves to the Scriptures.... Scott used a trick to try to convince people who do not know much about Scripture into believing that this specific Scripture indicates Mary should be bestowed glory and that she should be exalted. This Scripture does not indicate that Mary should be glorified or exalted. If you look closely at what he said, “The first command that deals with our fellow relations”. Fellow relations means human relations. And besides, it makes absolutely no sense to tell the Jewish people to glorify, bestow glory, and exalt their Dad and Mom.

Thanks for futher insite into Scott

I accidently ran across the intentional error on the teaching on the fourth cup posted on another thread . Like you ,a former Catholic, I knew no scripture except the churchs proof texts before I was born again..

I make no claims to being a scholar by any means ..but I do love the word of God and so that change jumped out at me..

I believe Scott wanted an audience that would see him as a scholar. There was no way Protestants ever would..We have hundreds of "ordinary"Pastors and laymen that know the word as well or better than Scott. But to the scripitually ignorant Catholics he is a scholar trophy

After I caught that error I did a bit of a search on him and found he had met resistance when he pastored a protestant church.

My concern is not Scott..there are lots of false teacher and ego driven scripture scholars (in all churches)..but I do care about the correct use of scripture by the teachers and Pastors.