Posted on 10/07/2002 1:03:41 PM PDT by Polycarp
This is a decent summary from a non-Catholic source:
Current status of Mary:
Although the virgin Mary is rarely mentioned in the Bible, and although Protestant churches consider her to be a relatively minor biblical character, the Roman Catholic Church has long assigned her an elevated status.
The Roman Catholic Church has historically taught two basic dogmas about Mary:
|
1. Mary is the Mother of God. |
|
2. Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin when Yeshua (Jesus) was conceived; this state continued throughout her life. |
Two additional dogmas about Mary were infallibly proclaimed by two popes during the 19th and 20th centuries:
|
3. Immaculate Conception: Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on 1854-DEC-8. Many Roman Catholics believe that this refers to Jesus' conception circa 5 to 7 BCE. In fact, it means that Mary herself was conceived free of sin before her birth circa 20 BCE. |
|
4. Assumption of Mary: Pope Pius XII, in his Munificentissimus Deus (1950-NOV-1), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven." That is, she was "taken up body and soul into heaven," at the time of her death. She is there "exalted as Queen of the Universe." 1 |
In addition, various popes and church councils have referred to Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate:
|
In ancient times:
|
||||||
|
1750: Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, canonized as Saint Alphonsus in 1839, wrote a book "The Glories of Mary." It continues to be published today, under various church imprimaturs. Various chapters in the book are titled: "Mary our Help," "Mary our Mediatress," "Mary our Advocate," etc. 1 | ||||||
|
1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast. 1 | ||||||
|
Circa 1965: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II states, in part:
|
||||||
|
1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." 4 | ||||||
|
1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice." 1 | ||||||
|
1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." 1 |
Although Mary has been referred to on numerous occasions as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate, none have the force of an infallible papal declaration.
Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, initiated a formal petition drive in 1993 during a Marian conference at that university. It asks the Pope to make infallible statement that would officially elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to the status of co-redeemer. More than six million signatures from 148 countries have reached the Vatican as of the end of the year 2000, asking that Pope John Paul II infallibly declare a new dogma: "That the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and co-operates fully with her son in the redemption of humanity." If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." 3 Miravalle's petition has received support from Mother Theresa, 550 bishops, Cardinal John O'Connor and 41 other cardinals (including at least 12 cardinals in Rome). If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:
|
Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption. |
|
Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces. |
|
Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments. |
If the dogma is infallibly declared, many feel that, in the words of Father Rene Laurentin, it would be the equivalent of launching "bombs" at Protestants. Father Laurentin is a French monk and the world's leading Mary scholar. He believes that: "Mary is the model of our faith but she is not divine. There is no mediation or co-redemption except in Christ. He alone is God." Raising the status of Mary would further acerbate the split between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Ecumenical activity would be negatively affected. There is speculation that a schism might develop over the issue within the Roman Catholic church. There may be a renewed debate over the role of the pope's power in the church. 5,6
"To whom shall we go" only makes sense if Jesus is speaking literally
No it makes sense if one believes the words Jesus spoke not only here but elsewhere
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not.For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Jhn 6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Jhn 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Jhn 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Jhn 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Jesus KNEW who was His and who would stay...He knew who the Spirit would quicken...
Remember this exchange
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Jesus continually reafirmed that we do not understand or believe in ourselves..that saving faith is a gift of God
That was what was happening in John 6
Could YOU walk away from Christ? Where would you go? Where would I go? Peter who had a gift for putting his foot in his mouth also had an ability to express our lives and our faith in human terms...A more wordly man may not have been so honest or childlike in his answer...but Peter answered for all of us...I have no where to go but the arms of Christ...Peter spoke for me..for every believer..
It is not easy to be His..and yet it is a joy ..it brings others to mock us and hate us and in the case of Peter hang him...but Lord where would I go???
Jesus thinned the ranks that day..the "dead wood "was moved out
But remember His words..He did not Lose ONE that the Father had given Him...those that walked away were never Gods .
Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Aquinas ..That was a serious discourse..it laid out what was expected by those that are his...they that were not moved by the grace of God walked away...The disciples and us are compeled to stay..where else would we go?
We just argue when I say something of substance....so might as well just kid around and be friendly with you. I've taken to posting my serious stuff to others. You don't pay attention to it. We don't argue. The world has peace. :>)
There are other significant issues in the Bible, but we just haven't gotten to them yet. Our recent discussions on the millennium and on baptism were pretty good.
I think a discussion on the biblical leadership structure of the church would be a good topic.
An Evangelical Church would eventually call him on it..but he has found a home among the Biblically "illiterate"
Scripture says that God will hold teachers responsible...I hope at some point Scott realizes what he is doing
Sirach 16:12
Great as his mercy is his punishment; he judges men, each according to his deeds.
1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.
1 Macc. 2:52
Was not Abraham found faithful in trial, and it was reputed to him as uprightness?
James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
Wisdom 15:7
For truly the potter, laboriously working the soft earth, molds for our service each several article: Both the vessels that serve for clean purposes and their opposites, all alike; As to what shall be the use of each vessel of either class the worker in clay is the judge.
Rom. 9:21
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Hebrews 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.
2 Maccabees 7
It also happened that seven brothers with their mother were arrested and tortured with whips and scourges by the king, to force them to eat pork in violation of God's law... When he was completely maimed but still breathing, the king ordered them to carry him to the fire and fry him. As a cloud of smoke spread from the pan, the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die bravely, saying such words as these: "The Lord God is looking on, and he truly has compassion on us, as Moses declared in his canticle, when he protested openly with the words, 'And he will have pity on his servants...'" Do not be afraid of this executioner, but be worthy of your brothers and accept death, so that in the time of mercy I may receive you again with them." Thus he too died undefiled, putting all his trust in the Lord. The mother was last to die, after her sons.
Sirach 44:19
ABRAHAM, father of many peoples, kept his glory without stain:
Rom. 4:17
As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations."
Wis. 13:1-10
For all men were by nature foolish who were in ignorance of God, and who from the good things seen did not succeed in knowing him who is, and from studying the works did not discern the artisan; But either fire, or wind, or the swift air, or the circuit of the stars, or the mighty water, or the luminaries of heaven, the governors of the world, they considered gods. Now if out of joy in their beauty they thought them gods, let them know how far more excellent is the Lord than these; for the original source of beauty fashioned them. Or if they were struck by their might and energy, let them from these things realize how much more powerful is he who made them. For from the greatness and the beauty of created things their original author, by analogy, is seen. But yet, for these the blame is less; For they indeed have gone astray perhaps, though they seek God and wish to find him. For they search busily among his works, but are distracted by what they see, because the things seen are fair. But again, not even these are pardonable. For if they so far succeeded in knowledge that they could speculate about the world, how did they not more quickly find its LORD? But doomed are they, and in dead things are their hopes, who termed gods things made by human hands: Gold and silver, the product of art, and likenesses of beasts, or useless stone, the work of an ancient hand.
Rom 1:18-25
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
Wis. 5:17-20 He shall take his zeal for armor and he shall arm creation to requite the enemy; He shall don justice for a breastplate and shall wear sure judgment for a helmet; He shall take invincible rectitude as a shield and whet his sudden anger for a sword, And the universe shall war with him against the foolhardy.
Eph. 6:13-17
Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Wis. 11:7
Instead of a spring, when the perennial river was troubled with impure blood as a rebuke to the decree for the slaying of infants, You gave them abundant water in an unhoped-for way, once you had shown by the thirst they then had how you punished their adversaries.
Matt. 2:16
When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.
Wisdom 7:7
Therefore I prayed, and prudence was given me; I pleaded and the spirit of Wisdom came to me.
Eph. 1:17
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[6] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
Sirach 29:11
Spend your money for your brother and friend, and hide it not under a stone to perish; Dispose of your treasure as the Most High commands, for that will profit you more than the gold. Store up almsgiving in your treasure house, and it will save you from every evil;
Matt. 6:19-20
"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
Tobit 4:15
Do to no one what you yourself dislike.
Matt. 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you
Sirach 27:6
The fruit of a tree shows the care it has had
Matt. 7:16,20
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Judith 11:19
You will drive them like sheep that have no shepherd,
Matt. 9:36
When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.
Tobit 7:18
"Be brave, my daughter. May the Lord of heaven grant you joy in place of your grief. Courage, my daughter." Then she left.
Matt. 11:25
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
"The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here."
Wisdom 16:13
For you have dominion over life and death; you lead down to the gates of the nether world, and lead back.
Matt. 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Tobit 3:8
For she had been married to seven husbands, but the wicked demon Asmodeus killed them off before they could have intercourse with her, as it is prescribed for wives. So the maid said to her: "You are the one who strangles your husbands! Look at you! You have already been married seven times, but you have had no joy with any one of your husbands. I have given her in marriage to seven men, all of whom were kinsmen of ours, and all died on the very night they approached her. But now, son, eat and drink. I am sure the Lord will look after you both." Tobiah answered, "I will eat or drink nothing until you set aside what belongs to me." Raguel said to him: "I will do it. She is yours according to the decree of the Book of Moses. Your marriage to her has been decided in heaven! Take your kinswoman; from now on you are her love, and she is your beloved. She is yours today and ever after. And tonight, son, may the Lord of heaven prosper you both. May he grant you mercy and peace."
Matt. 22:25
Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27Finally, the woman died. 28Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?"
1 Macc. 1:54
On the fifteenth day of the month Chislev, in the year one hundred and forty-five, the king erected the horrible abomination upon the altar of holocausts, and in the surrounding cities of Judah they built pagan altars. Matt. 24:15
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[2] spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--keeping before their eyes the lawless outrage perpetrated by the Gentiles against the holy Place and the affliction of the humiliated city, as well as the subversion of their ancestral way of life.
1 Macc. 2:28
Thereupon he fled to the mountains with his sons, leaving behind in the city all their possessions.
Matt. 24:16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Matt. 27:43
He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.' " Wisdom 2:18
For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes.
Sirach 40:15
The offshoot of violence will not flourish, for the root of the godless is on sheer rock;
Mark 4:5
Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Judith 16:17
in the day of judgment he will punish them: He will send fire and worms into their flesh, and they shall burn and suffer forever."
Mark 9:48
hell, where " 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
Judith 13:1
Then Uzziah said to her: "Blessed are you, daughter, by the Most High God, above all the women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, the creator of heaven and earth, who guided your blow at the head of the chief of our enemies.
Luke 1:42
In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!
Sirach 10:14
The thrones of the arrogant God overturns and establishes the lowly in their stead.
Luke 1:52
He has brought down rulers from their thrones but has lifted up the humble.
Tobit 11:9
Then Anna ran up to her son, threw her arms around him, and said to him, "Now that I have seen you again, son, I am ready to die!" And she sobbed aloud.
Luke 2:29
"Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss[4] your servant in peace.
Baruch 4:37
Here come your sons whom you once let go, gathered in from the east and from the west By the word of the Holy One, rejoicing in the glory of God.
Luke 13:29
People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.
Sirach 28:18
Many have fallen by the edge of the sword, but not as many as by the tongue.
Luke 21:24
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Wisdom 9:1
God of my fathers, LORD of mercy. you who have made all things by your word
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Baruch 3:29
Who has gone up to the heavens and taken her, or brought her down from the clouds?
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
Wisdom 8:8
The apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon's Colonnade.
John 4:48
"Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders," Jesus told him, "you will never believe."
Wisdom 2:16
He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father.
John 5:18
For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Sirach 24:21
He who eats of me will hunger still, he who drinks of me will thirst for more;
John 6:35
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.
1 Macc. 4:5
Then Judas and his brothers and the entire congregation of Israel decreed that the days of the dedication of the altar should be observed with joy and gladness on the anniversary every year for eight days, from the twenty-fifth day of the month Chislev.
John 10:22
Then came the Feast of Dedication[2] at Jerusalem. It was winter,
Wis. 4:5
Their twigs shall be broken off untimely, and their fruit be useless, unripe for eating, and fit for nothing.
John 15:6
If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Sirach 35:12
For he is a God of justice, who knows no favorites.
Acts 10:34
Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism
Wisdom 13:10
But doomed are they, and in dead things are their hopes, who termed gods things made by human hands: Gold and silver, the product of art, and likenesses of beasts, or useless stone, the work of an ancient hand.
Acts 17:29
"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone--an image made by man's design and skill.
Wis. 13:1
For all men were by nature foolish who were in ignorance of God, and who from the good things seen did not succeed in knowing him who is, and from studying the works did not discern the artisan;
Rom. 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Wis. 11:15
And in return for their senseless, wicked thoughts, which misled them into worshiping dumb serpents and worthless insects, You sent upon them swarms of dumb creatures for vengeance;
Rom. 1:23
and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Wis. 14:12,24-27
They no longer safeguard either lives or pure wedlock; but each either waylays and kills his neighbor, or aggrieves him by adultery. 25 And all is confusion-blood and murder, theft and guile, corruption, faithlessness, turmoil, perjury, 26 Disturbance of good men, neglect of gratitude, besmirching of souls, unnatural lust, disorder in marriage, adultery and shamelessness. 27 For the worship of infamous idols is the reason and source and extremity of all evil.
Rom. 1:24-27
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
Wisdom 2:24 But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are in his possession experience it.
Rom. 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned
Wisdom 9:13
For what man knows God's counsel, or who can conceive what our LORD intends?
1 Cor. 2:16
"For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?"
Sirach 36:18
Be not drawn after every enjoyment, neither become a glutton for choice foods, 29 For sickness comes with overeating, and gluttony brings on biliousness. 30 Through lack of self-control many have died, but the abstemious man prolongs his life.
1 Cor. 6:12-13
"Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"--but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body
Wis. 13:3
Now if out of joy in their beauty they thought them gods, let them know how far more excellent is the Lord than these; for the original source of beauty fashioned them.
1 Cor. 8:5-6
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God
Wisdom 19:7
The cloud overshadowed their camp; and out of what had before been water, dry land was seen emerging: Out of the Red Sea an unimpeded road, and a grassy plain out of the mighty flood.
1 Cor. 10:1
For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
Baruch 4:7
For you provoked your Maker with sacrifices to demons, to no-gods;
1 Cor. 10:20
No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.
2 Macc. 12:43-45.
for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. 45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
1 Cor. 15:29
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
Wis. 5:18
He shall don justice for a breastplate and shall wear sure judgment for a helmet;
Eph. 6:14
Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place,
2 Macc. 12:15
But the King of kings aroused the anger of Antiochus against the scoundrel.
1 Timothy 6:15
15which God will bring about in his own time--God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
Wisdom 2:16
Therefore shall they receive the splendid crown, the beauteous diadem, from the hand of the LORD- For he shall shelter them with his right hand, and protect them with his arm.
2 Tim. 4:8
Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
Wisdom 18:15
Your all-powerful word from heaven's royal throne bounded, a fierce warrior, into the doomed land,
Heb. 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Sir 44:16
(ENOCH walked with the LORD and was taken up, that succeeding generations might learn by his example.)
Heb. 11:5
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
Sirach 25:22
Depressed mind, saddened face, broken heart--this from an evil wife. Feeble hands and quaking knees-- from a wife who brings no happiness to her husband.
Heb. 12:12
Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees.
Sirach 5:11
Be swift to hear, but slow to answer. 14 If you have the knowledge, answer your neighbor; if not, put your hand over your mouth. 15 Honor and dishonor through talking! A man's tongue can be his downfall.
James 1:19
My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,
Sirach 3:17
2 My son, conduct your affairs with humility, and you will be loved more than a giver of gifts.
James 3:13
Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom.
Sirach 29:10-11
Spend your money for your brother and friend, and hide it not under a stone to perish; 11 Dispose of your treasure as the Most High commands, for that will profit you more than the gold.
James 5:3
Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.
Wisdom 2:10-20
Let us oppress the needy just man; let us neither spare the widow nor revere the old man for his hair grown white with time. 11 But let our strength be our norm of justice; for weakness proves itself useless. 12 2 3 Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training.
James 5:6
You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.
Wisdom 3:5-6
Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. 6 2 As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself.
1 Peter 1:6-7
In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
Wisdom 10:6
She delivered the just man from among the wicked who were being destroyed, when he fled as fire descended upon Pentapolis--
2 Peter 2:7
and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
Wis. 16:13
For you have dominion over life and death; you lead down to the gates of the nether world, and lead back.
Rev. 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Wisdom 18:16
bearing the sharp sword of your inexorable decree. And as he alighted, he filled every place with death; he still reached to heaven, while he stood upon the earth.
Rev. 2:12
"To the angel of the church in Pergamum write: These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword.
Sirach 1:8
He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.
Rev. 5:7
There is but one, wise and truly awe-inspiring, seated upon his throne: 7 It is the LORD;
Aquinasfan: "The major premise begs the question. How do we identify a prophet?
In the dictionary, the first definition of a prophet is "1. A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed." Certainly that would include any inspired author of Scripture. So the question then becomes, Who are the inspired authors of Scripture? And we're back where we started from."
You circled back because you refuse you accept the fact that after the aproximate date of 435 B.C. (when Malachi wrote), the Jews recognized no further additions to the OT canon.
The subsequent history of the Jewish people was recorded in other writings, such as the book of Maccabees, but those writings weren't considered by the Jews to be worthy of inclusion in the OT canon along with the collections of God's words from earlier years.
Jewish literature outside the OT shows that they believed that the divinely authoritative words from God had ceased around 435 B.C.
About 100 B.C., the author of 1 Maccabees writes of the defiled altar, "So they tore down the altar and stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until there should come a prophet to tell them what to do with them." [1 Macc.4:45-46]
They apparently knew of no one who could speak with the authority of God as the OT prophets had done.
The memory of an authorative prophet among the people was one that belonged to the distant past, for the author could speak of a great distress "such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them." [1 Macc.9:27; cf.14:41]
The greatest Jewish historian of the first century, Josephus (born c.A.D. 37/38), explained, "From Artaxerxes to our own times a complete history has been written, but has not been deemed worthy of equal credit with the earlier records, because of the failure of the exact succession of the prophets." (Against Apion 1.41).
This shows that Josephus knew of the writings now considered part of the "Apocrypha", (also called Deuterocanonical books), but that in his viewpoint, and that of many of his contemporaries, no more "words of God" were added to Scripture after about 435 B.C.
In the New Testament, we have no record of any dispute between Jesus and the Jews over the extent of the canon. Apparently there was full agreement between Jesus and his disciples, on the one hand, and the Jewish leaders or Jewish people, on the other hand, that additions to the OT canon had ceased after the time of Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi.
This fact is confirmed by the quotations of Jesus and the NT authors from the OT. According to one count, Jesus and the NT authors quote various parts of OT Scriptures as divinely authorative over 295 times but not once do they cite any statement from the books of the Apocrypha or any other writings as having *divine authority*.
Jude (14-15) does cite 1 Enoch 60.8 and 1.9, and Paul at least twice quotes pagan Greek authors (Acts 17:28; Titus 1:12), but these citations are more for the purposes of illustration than proof. Never are the works introduced with a phrase like, "God says", or "Scripture says", or "It is written", phrases that imply the attribution of divine authority to the words cited.
It should also be noted that neither 1 Enoch nor the authors cited by Paul are part of the Apocrypha. No book of what is called, "the Deuterocanonical books" (Apocrypha) is even mentioned in the New Testament.
The definitive work on the OT canon is contained in Roger Beckwith's book, entitled, "The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church and Its Background in Early Judaism" (London: SPCK, 1985, and Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1986).
At the conclusion of his study, Beckwith says, "The inclusion of various Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha in the canon of the early Christians was not done in any agreed way or at the earliest period, but occurred in Gentile Christianity, after the church's breach with the synogogue, among those whose knowledge of the primitive Christian canon was becoming blurred." He concludes, "On the question of the canonicity of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha the truly primitive Christian evidence is negative" [pp 436-37]
I could cite many more references from Rabbinic literature, and elsewhere, but it all says essentially the same thing as I wrote/quoted above. (It's easily located if one is truly interested).
Bottom line? God, himself, places supreme value on our having a correct collection of God-breathed writings (graphe aka Scripture), no more no less, and pronounces severe punishment on any who would add or subtract from his words.
For His WORDS are our life. [Deut.32:47; Matt.4:4]
Just as God was at work in creation, in the calling of his people Isreal, in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, and in the early work and writings of the apostles, so God was at work in the preservation and assembling together of the books of Scripture for the benefit of his people for the entire church age.
Ultimately, then, we base our confidence in the correctness of our present canon on the faithfulness of God.
That is an oxymoronic statement. (See post #770):
Excerpt:
".... This fact is confirmed by the quotations of Jesus and the NT authors from the OT. According to one count, Jesus and the NT authors quote various parts of OT Scriptures as divinely authorative over 295 times but not once do they cite any statement from the books of the Apocrypha or any other writings as having *divine authority*."
"Jude (14-15) does cite 1 Enoch 60.8 and 1.9, and Paul at least twice quotes pagan Greek authors (Acts 17:28; Titus 1:12), but these citations are more for the purposes of illustration than proof. Never are the works introduced with a phrase like, "God says", or "Scripture says", or "It is written", phrases that imply the attribution of divine authority to the words cited."
"There are no marks in these (Apocryphal) books which would attest a divine origin ... both Judith and Tobit contain historical, chronological and geographical errors. The books justify falsehood and deception and make salvation depend upon works of merit ... Ecclesiasticus and the Wisdom of Solomon inculcate a morality based upon expediency. Wisdom teaches the creation of the world out of pre-existent matter (11:17). Ecclesiasticus teaches that the giving of alms makes atonement for sin (3:30). In Baruch it is said that God hears the prayers of the dead (3:4), in 1 Maccabees there are historical and geographical errors. ..." ~~ [E.J.Young "The Canon of the Old Testament," in Revelation and the Bible, pp.167-68]
It should be noted that Roman Catholics use the term "deuterocanonical" rather than "apocryphal" to refer to these books. They understand this to mean "LATER added to the canon". (The prefix 'deutero' means 'second').
Also quite telling, is the fact that the RCC didn't officially declare their "deuterocanonical books" (with a couple of exceptions) to be a part of the canon until the Council of Trent in 1546 as a direct response to the rapidly spreading Protestant REFORMation.
They had to move fast to affirm uninspired literary works (the Apocrypha) as being within the canon so as to gin up support for their teachings about prayers for the dead, justification by faith PLUS works, not by faith alone, etc., etc., even though the evidence shows quite clearly that they contain teachings inconsistent with the rest of the Bible.
No one denies that the non cannonical books are a common cultural knowlege ..we doubt the inspiration of them ..as did the Jews that did not include them in their canon...and they also were not in the dead sea scrolls
Give us a direct citation by Jesus
Dr. Roger Nicole wrote the book, "New Testament Use of the Old Testament," in Revelation and the Bible, ed. Carl F. H. Henry (London: Tyndale Press 1959) pp.137-41).
I haven't read it (just various references to it), but it is probably full of good information on this subject.
" Luke 2:22-24 22 When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, "Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord"), 24 and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: "a pair of doves or two young pigeons."
It says that Mary had to be purified according to the law of Moses.This next Scripture explains what the purification is for
"Lev 12:6 6 "'When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering. (NIV) Lev 12:8 8 If she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.'" (NIV) "
If Mary was without sin, as you are trying to prove, please explain why she had to make a sin offering and be cleansed by a priest?
I find it amazing that the website you point to in your post that claims no biblical reference to Mary being a sinner ignore these verses. "
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
