Current status of Mary [Re: Cardinal Ratzinger Does Not Foresee Approval of “Co-redemptrix”]

[Polycarp]

This is a decent summary from a non-Catholic source:

Current status of Mary:

Although the virgin Mary is rarely mentioned in the Bible, and although Protestant churches consider her to be a relatively minor biblical character, the Roman Catholic Church has long assigned her an elevated status. 

The Roman Catholic Church has historically taught two basic dogmas about Mary:

	1. Mary is the Mother of God.
	2. Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin when Yeshua (Jesus) was conceived; this state continued throughout her life.

Two additional dogmas about Mary were infallibly proclaimed by two popes during the 19^th and 20^th centuries:

	3. Immaculate Conception: Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on 1854-DEC-8. Many Roman Catholics believe that this refers to Jesus' conception circa 5 to 7 BCE. In fact, it means that Mary herself was conceived free of sin before her birth circa 20 BCE.
	4. Assumption of Mary: Pope Pius XII, in his Munificentissimus Deus (1950-NOV-1), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven." That is, she was "taken up body and soul into heaven," at the time of her death. She is there "exalted as Queen of the Universe." 1

In addition, various popes and church councils have referred to Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate:

In ancient times:

	St. Antonius (circa 250 - 350): "All graces that have ever been bestowed on men, all came through Mary."
	St. Bernard (1090 - 1153): "[Mary is called] the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her."
	St. Bonaventure (1221 - 1274): "As the moon, which stands between the sun and the earth, transmits to this latter whatever it receives from the former, so does Mary pour out upon us who are in this world the heavenly graces that she receives from the divine sun of justice." 1

1750: Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, canonized as Saint Alphonsus in 1839, wrote a book "The Glories of Mary." It continues to be published today, under various church imprimaturs. Various chapters in the book are titled: "Mary our Help," "Mary our Mediatress," "Mary our Advocate," etc. ₁

1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast. ₁

Circa 1965: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II states, in part: 

"Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...'death through Eve, life through Mary.' This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death" 2

"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix." 3

1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." ₄

1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice." ₁

1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." ₁

Although Mary has been referred to on numerous occasions as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate, none have the force of an infallible papal declaration.

Petition drive to promote an infallible statement:

Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, initiated a formal petition drive in 1993 during a Marian conference at that university. It asks the Pope to make infallible statement that would officially elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to the status of co-redeemer. More than six million signatures from 148 countries have reached the Vatican as of the end of the year 2000, asking that Pope John Paul II infallibly declare a new dogma: "That the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and co-operates fully with her son in the redemption of humanity." If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." ₃ Miravalle's petition has received support from Mother Theresa, 550 bishops, Cardinal John O'Connor and 41 other cardinals (including at least 12 cardinals in Rome). If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:

	Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption.
	Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces.
	Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments.

If the dogma is infallibly declared, many feel that, in the words of Father Rene Laurentin, it would be the equivalent of launching "bombs" at Protestants. Father Laurentin is a French monk and the world's leading Mary scholar. He believes that: "Mary is the model of our faith but she is not divine. There is no mediation or co-redemption except in Christ. He alone is God." Raising the status of Mary would further acerbate the split between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Ecumenical activity would be negatively affected. There is speculation that a schism might develop over the issue within the Roman Catholic church. There may be a renewed debate over the role of the pope's power in the church. _5,6

[Catholicguy]

<> It seems to be the Calvinist position that everything is predetermined. Even that I am predetermined to go to Hell. That dark doctrine makes of Jesus a Liar. You are welcome to it. I want no part of that Evil.

IF all had been predetermined, then one would have to conclude that Jesus established His Church, sent the Holy Spirit upon it to Teach it all truth, promised to be with His Church until the end of time but He was intentionallly Lying. He REALLY did not intend that.

No, according to the logic of Calvinism, He established His Catholic Church to spread errors and falsehoods, lies, and false Doctrine for 16 Centuries before finally raising up the great champion Calvin to set everything right.

In the meantime 100's of millions of Christians lived and died and were sent to Hell for everlasting punishment for believing the false doctrine spread by the Catholic Church that Jesus established because that was the predetermined plan of God. Serves them bastards right

Yep, it all makes perfect sense to me when I look at it that way.:)<>

<> This is your Faith. And it is the Faith that the_doc got you to accept. Do you think for a nanosecond I'd fall for such evil insanity?<>

[Catholicguy]

<> Calvin. Don't you know that Jesus REALKLY didn't mean what He said?

I don' think you understand. It's a "predestination" thingy.:)

[Catholicguy]

You don't need to apologize to me

<> I didn't. But, I am not surprised you see things that are not there even as you don't see things that are there. You do it with the Word of God so I am not surprised you do it with my words:)<>

[Matchett-PI]

"What fruit do you bear?"

It isn't the sort of anti-Scriptural fruit you advocate of attempting to unite Light with darkness.

[Aquinasfan]

there were no real Bible believers prior to Luther, I guess

If true Christians believe the doctrine of "Bible only," then one can only conclude that there weren't any prior to Luther's time.

One thing that always struck me as humorous about Luther's doctrine is whether he ever wondered how Bibles could have been distributed to all Christians prior to the invention of the printing press.

[Aquinasfan]

    Rom 3:10   As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

If you had faith the size of a mustard seed you could throw a mountain into the ocean. Why don't you give it a try?

It's called hyperbole.

[RnMomof7]

The entire Tabernacle was a type of Christ..you have seperated the ark as if it alone is exempt from the total typeology

The OT is filed with types of Christ..you want to elimate the ark as a type of Christ so thatyou can justify a preverse doctrine that God hates..So tell me is Mary the one that sits on that Mercyseat?

You guys have made Mary a god...you hold her up as your judge and your savior..you make her so holy that no one but the High Priest could touch her...Perhaps you call her the second eve because the mary you worship is a god!

An incomplete list

Types of Christ:

* Adam
(Romans 5:14; 1 Corinthians 15:45)

* Abel
(Genesis 4:8,10; Hebrews 12:24)

* Abraham
(Genesis 17:5; Ephesians 3:15)

* Aaron
(Exodus 28:1; Hebrews 5:4,5; Leviticus 16:15; Hebrews 9:7,24)

* Ark
(Genesis 7:16; 1 Peter 3:20,21)

* Ark of the Covenant
(Exodus 25:16; Psalms 40:8; Isaiah 42:6)

* Atonement, sacrifices offered on the day of
(Leviticus 16:15,16; Hebrews 9:12,24)

* Brazen serpent
(Numbers 21:9; John 3:14,15)

* Brazen altar
(Exodus 27:1,2; Hebrews 13:10)

* Burnt offering
(Leviticus 1:2,4; Hebrews 10:10)

* Cities of refuge
(Numbers 35:6; Hebrews 6:18)

* David
(2 Samuel 8:15; Ezekiel 37:24; Psalms 89:19,20; Philippians 2:9)

* Eliakim
(Isaiah 22:20-22; Revelation 3:7)

* First-fruits
(Exodus 22:29; 1 Corinthians 15:20)

* Golden candlestick
(Exodus 25:31; John 8:12)

* Golden altar
(Exodus 40:5,26,27; Revelation 8:3; Hebrews 13:15)

* Isaac
(Genesis 22:1,2; Hebrews 11:17-19)

* Jacob
(Genesis 32:28; John 11:42; Hebrews 7:25)

* Jacob's ladder
(Genesis 28:12; John 1:51)

* Joseph
(Genesis 50:19,20)

* Joshua
(Joshua 1:5,6; Hebrews 4:8,9; Joshua 11:23; Acts 20:32)

* Jonah
(Jonah 1:17; Matthew 12:40)

* Laver of brass
(Exodus 30:18-20; Zechariah 13:1; Ephesians 5:26,27)

* Leper's offering
(Leviticus 14:4-7; Romans 4:25)

* Man
(Exodus 16:11-15; John 6:32-35)

* Melchizedek
(Genesis 14:18-20; Hebrews 7:1-17)

* Mercy-seat
(Exodus 25:17-22; Romans 3:25; Hebrews 4:16)

* Morning and evening sacrifices
(Exodus 29:38-41; John 1:29,36)

* Moses
(Numbers 12:7; Hebrews 3:2; Deuteronomy 18:15; Acts 3:20-22)

* Noah
(Genesis 5:29; 2 Corinthians 1:5)

* Paschal lamb
(Exodus 12:3-6,46; John 19:36; 1 Corinthians 5:7)

* Peace offerings
(Leviticus 3:1; Ephesians 2:14,16)

* Red heifer
(Numbers 19:2-6; Hebrews 9:13,14)

* Rock of Horeb
(Exodus 17:6; 1 Corinthians 10:4)

* Samson
(Judges 16:30; Colossians 2:14,15)

* Scape goat
(Leviticus 16:20-22; Isaiah 53:6,12)

* Sin offering
(Leviticus 4:2,3,12; Hebrews 13:11,12)

* Solomon
(2 Samuel 7:12,13; Luke 1:32,33; 1 Peter 2:5)

* Tabernacle
(Exodus 40:2,34; Hebrews 9:11; Colossians 2:9)

* Table and show bread
(Exodus 25:23-30; John 1:16; 6:48)

* Temple
(1 Kings 6:1,38; John 2:19,21)

* Tree of life
(Genesis 2:9; John 1:4; Revelation 22:2)

* Trespass offering
(Leviticus 6:1-7; Isaiah 53:10)

* Vail of the tabernacle and temple
(Exodus 40:21; 2 Chronicles 3:14; Hebrews 10:20)

* Zerubbabel
(Zechariah 4:7-9; Hebrews 12:2,3)

[Polycarp]

Your post just goes to show just how one sided the hate is from the Catholics

This from the one who calls Mary Mother of Jesus the "Queen of Hell?"

Who you trying to kid.

Plus I can just use the_doc's standard response that we're simply using harsh but necessary words for those whose hearts are cold and ears are closed.

I'm thrilled to see that collection of quotes BTW.

They're just as valid now as the first time they were posted by their respective Catholic Freepers.

[Matchett-PI]

M-PI: "You don't need to apologize to me"

CG: "<> I didn't."

You are so defensive.

You excused yourself for having to go somewhere in order to confess your sins because, after all, you are Catholic.

Well, I'm sorry that I misinterpreted your excuse ("I am a Catholic") for using a second-fiddle priest to confess your sins to (instead of THE PERFECT PRIEST), as an apology.

[Polycarp]

I liked all of them. Good clean concise, pithy polemics are so desperately needed these days.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

One thing that always struck me as humorous about Luther's doctrine is whether he ever wondered how Bibles could have been distributed to all Christians prior to the invention of the printing press.

I have thought alot about point of argument, and have finally decided that this argument is a veiw from human prespective. Now wait...before you scorll pass:) hear me out.

Why I thought alot about it is because of Deut. 6:6-9 And these words which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. And thou sahlt write them upon the psots of they house, and on thy gates.

Now in veiw of this command, do you think God could expect such a command to be kept if there was not plenty of copies of scripture around. And then they were to write them on their posts and gates.

I think, and I admit this is pure speculation, that alot of the time the Hebrews were wondering around the dessert for those 40 years, each family, maybe each person was copying what was available at that time, and then this practice carried over, isn't that what scribes were.

I really feel there were plenty of copies around for everyone to at least read parts of it for themseleves enough to know God's will.

As I said in view of the verses from Deut. I think God would make sure the point of everyone haveing what he commanded them to know was taken care of. Just a thought.

Becky

[Catholicguy]

The keys are gone<> <> I hear a B.B. King parody forming in my mind. "The Keys are Gone" sung to the tune of "The Thrill is gone....."

Rnmom, you are amasing. I guess Jesus WAS kidding when He made His promises.

More proof that for you folks, Calvin is God.<>

[CCWoody]

Yep, it all makes perfect sense to me when I look at it that way.:)<>

"They're all out to get me" makes perfect sense to the paranoid personality. However, sane individuals automically know that the paranoid has got mental problems. In the same regard, those of us with a Truth receptor in our soul know that what makes "perfect sense" to an unregenerate Roman Catholic is nothing more than the Truth supressing ramblings of an evil heart.

These Truth supressors will be quoted as saying to the High Priest "I went to my priest for confessional and absolution of my sin" immediately before He tells them "Depart from me you worker of iniquity into the everlasting fire. I never knew you." These Truth supressors will wonder in their last moments how the Lord can say that He never knew them when it is obvious that He knows them better than they know themselves.

---

P.S. You should see the hate mail I am getting from one of my adoring Catholic fans. I don't think that she has ever had a single nice word to say to me.

[Codie]

33 A.D.


JESUS CHRIST ESTABLISHES HIS CHURCH IN 33 A.D. TEACHING:



1. THE BLESSED TRINITY -- "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father The Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one." (1 John 5,7)

2. THE INCARNATION -- "And the Word was made flesh and lived among us&…;" (John 1,14)

3. DIVINITY OF CHRIST -- "Again the high priest asked Him, and said unto Him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed God?" "And Jesus said, I am&…;" (Mark 14, 61-62) "&…; God &…; will come and save you." (Isaiah 35,4)

4. REDEMPTION -- "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." (Heb. 9,12)

5. FUTURE REWARD OR PUNISHMENT -- "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matt. 25,34)

6. BAPTISM -- "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 28,19)

7. CONFIRMATION -- "Who, when they (Peter and John) were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit; (For as yet He was fallen upon none of them; only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." (Acts 8, 14-17)

8. HOLY COMMUNION -- "And when He had given thanks, He broke it, and said, Take, eat: this is My body, which is broken for you: this Do in remembrance of Me." (1 Cor. 11,24) "Wherefore whosoever shall eat the bread or drink the cup of the Lord, in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord." (1 Cor. 11,27) "Except ye eat this flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you." (John 6:53)

9. PENANCE (CONFESSION) -- "&…; Receive ye the Holy Spirit: Whose soever sins ye remit, they bare remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." (John 20,23)

10. ANNOINTING THE SICK -- "Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him." (James5, 14-15)

11. HOLY ORDERS -- "And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed." (Acts. 14-23)

12. MATRIMONY -- "And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she Depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her Husband and let not the husband put away his wife." (1 Cor 7, 10-11)

13. SIMON PETER AS HEAD OF HIS CHURCH -- "And I also say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall Not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Matt. 16,18-19)

14. TEN COMMANDMENTS -- "&…;there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matt. 19,17)

15. NECESSITY OF FAITHAND GOOD WORKS -- "What does it profit&…;though a man says he has faith and have not works? Can faith save him? (James 2:14) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead. (James 2:26)

[RnMomof7]

Worry less about your church and more about your soul...

Do you think God was surprised by the Heresies   in the Catholic church?

You assume that it was the "Roman Catholic" church was the ever the church of God.

Jesus left a church that within a few generations was apostate..When it was His time He removed the candlestick...

Peter gave a warning soon lost in the sale of indulgences and the replacment of the word of God with the traditions of men

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Your salvation is not in your church ..or any church. Your salvation is in Jesus Christ alone...not his mother or St. Jude....not in outward acts that attempt to make God your debtor...

Salavation is as the apostles preached only in the cross of Christ

[RnMomof7]

Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

[Codie]

From a recent (released yesterday) Barna Research Group survey. I don't know what such a survey is really worth, and have my doubts about general accuracy of such things, but it interested me nonetheless. [As an Evangelical survey group, Barna interpreted the majority of the responses to this question were in direct conflict with the Bible.]

A slight majority of adults (51%) believes that "praying to deceased saints can have a positive effect in a person's life." Not surprisingly, there is a massive difference between Protestants and Catholics on this matter, with Catholics twice as likely to embrace this idea (80% versus 41%). What is surprising is the large share of Protestants that believes in praying to dead saints, a notion dismissed by most Protestant churches. Amazingly, one out of six evangelicals (16%) and half of the non-evangelical born again Christians (50%) also believe in praying to dead saints. Six out of ten Hispanics possess this belief.

More than one-third of the public (35%) also believes that it is "possible to communicate with others after they die." This perspective is related to a person's age: half of all adults under age 38 endorse this view, compared to one-third of the Boomers (mid-thirties to mid-fifties) and just one out of seven older adults. Three out of ten non-evangelical born again Christians believe in communication with the dead. Once again, Catholics were more likely than Protestants to embrace this view (45% of Catholics, 26% of Protestants).

[RnMomof7]

Doctrines of Man not God


4th Century

-- confession of sins to priests, and

-- penance obligations assigned for sin

-- Purgatory doctrine introduced

440-461 Title of "Pope" first used by Leo, Bishop of Rome (Note: "papa" or "pope" as well as "Vicar of Christ" were used by many bishops in different cities until the 6th century when it began to be reserved for the Bishop of Rome.

450 Leo the Great begins building the Medieval Papacy into a political power.

(NOTE: None of the early Church Fathers who shaped the doctrine of the church were bishops of Rome.)

590 Pope Gregory the Great established the Papal Kingdom (Vatican)

-- paganism is mixed with Christianity in rituals, holidays, etc.

Example: December 25th, which was fixed as day to celebrate birth of

Jesus, is actually the nativity date of the pagan god Mithras.

700 Adoration of statues began ("Iconoclastic Movement")

-- also veneration of relics


850 Documents forged by some church leaders were alleged to be a handbook for church government put forth by "Pope" Sylvester in the 3rd century, supposedly giving support to the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome over other bishops. Called the "Forged Decretals", they were acknowledged as forgeries in 1440 by the Roman Catholic church, but by then the Roman Papacy was well established. Thus the claim by some that the Roman Catholic Church was "built on lies and forgeries".

850-962 112 years in which the Popes were chosen not by the Church, but by the Roman or German kings and emperors.

-- doctrine established of a "treasury of merit", of excess good deeds by apostles and saints, etc. This merit could be dispensed to forgive or "absolve" the sins of other people, who could receive a "dispensation" under authority of the Pope. This led to the doctrine of "indulgences", wherein people could purchase forgiveness for sin from the church.

 

1044 Pope Benedict IX (12 years old when elected Pope) was such a farce that he was forced to resign the Papacy.

1054 The "Great Schism", when the Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic branches of the Christian church excommunicated each other, formalizing a division that had actually been existence for centuries.

1059 Pope Nicholas II institutes the College of Cardinals in an attempt to regain for the Church the control of the Papacy, and wrest it away from the political leaders of the state.

1198 - 1216 Pope Innocent III acts as dictator, dominating the heads of state in England and Europe. (This was the reverse of "Caesaro-Papism" where the State ruled the Church.)

l2th Century -- more apostate false doctrines were introduced:

-- intercession of (& praying to) Mary and the saints

-- use of Rosary

-- use of crucifix

-- incense burning

-- ceremonial altars

1215 doctrine of Transubstantiation promulgated by Pope Innocent III as official dogma of the church. (it had been debated since the second century)

1265 Thomas Aquinas develops an explanation for the Transubstantion doctrine.

l5th Century -- "simony" introduced (purchase of priestly office with money)

-- reading the Bible is forbidden to the laity, at times under penalty of death.
1545 Council of Trent: met to try to reform the Catholic church's errors.

Later doctrines:

-- Papal infallibility

-- Papal decrees added to Bible and tradition as "basis of faith and doctrine"

-- Perpetual virginity and assumption of Mary

-- Prohibition against eating meat on Fridays

(first imposed, then rescinded in the 1960's, without any revelation from God

[RnMomof7]

15. NECESSITY OF FAITHAND GOOD WORKS -- "What does it profit&…;though a man says he has faith and have not works? Can faith save him? (James 2:14) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead. (James 2:26)



So you like having God your debtor and have Him OWE YOU something? Does that make you a god if the One true God owes you?