Current status of Mary [Re: Cardinal Ratzinger Does Not Foresee Approval of “Co-redemptrix”]

[Polycarp]

This is a decent summary from a non-Catholic source:

Current status of Mary:

Although the virgin Mary is rarely mentioned in the Bible, and although Protestant churches consider her to be a relatively minor biblical character, the Roman Catholic Church has long assigned her an elevated status. 

The Roman Catholic Church has historically taught two basic dogmas about Mary:

	1. Mary is the Mother of God.
	2. Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin when Yeshua (Jesus) was conceived; this state continued throughout her life.

Two additional dogmas about Mary were infallibly proclaimed by two popes during the 19^th and 20^th centuries:

	3. Immaculate Conception: Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on 1854-DEC-8. Many Roman Catholics believe that this refers to Jesus' conception circa 5 to 7 BCE. In fact, it means that Mary herself was conceived free of sin before her birth circa 20 BCE.
	4. Assumption of Mary: Pope Pius XII, in his Munificentissimus Deus (1950-NOV-1), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven." That is, she was "taken up body and soul into heaven," at the time of her death. She is there "exalted as Queen of the Universe." 1

In addition, various popes and church councils have referred to Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate:

In ancient times:

	St. Antonius (circa 250 - 350): "All graces that have ever been bestowed on men, all came through Mary."
	St. Bernard (1090 - 1153): "[Mary is called] the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her."
	St. Bonaventure (1221 - 1274): "As the moon, which stands between the sun and the earth, transmits to this latter whatever it receives from the former, so does Mary pour out upon us who are in this world the heavenly graces that she receives from the divine sun of justice." 1

1750: Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, canonized as Saint Alphonsus in 1839, wrote a book "The Glories of Mary." It continues to be published today, under various church imprimaturs. Various chapters in the book are titled: "Mary our Help," "Mary our Mediatress," "Mary our Advocate," etc. ₁

1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast. ₁

Circa 1965: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II states, in part: 

"Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...'death through Eve, life through Mary.' This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death" 2

"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix." 3

1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." ₄

1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice." ₁

1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." ₁

Although Mary has been referred to on numerous occasions as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate, none have the force of an infallible papal declaration.

Petition drive to promote an infallible statement:

Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, initiated a formal petition drive in 1993 during a Marian conference at that university. It asks the Pope to make infallible statement that would officially elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to the status of co-redeemer. More than six million signatures from 148 countries have reached the Vatican as of the end of the year 2000, asking that Pope John Paul II infallibly declare a new dogma: "That the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and co-operates fully with her son in the redemption of humanity." If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." ₃ Miravalle's petition has received support from Mother Theresa, 550 bishops, Cardinal John O'Connor and 41 other cardinals (including at least 12 cardinals in Rome). If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:

	Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption.
	Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces.
	Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments.

If the dogma is infallibly declared, many feel that, in the words of Father Rene Laurentin, it would be the equivalent of launching "bombs" at Protestants. Father Laurentin is a French monk and the world's leading Mary scholar. He believes that: "Mary is the model of our faith but she is not divine. There is no mediation or co-redemption except in Christ. He alone is God." Raising the status of Mary would further acerbate the split between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Ecumenical activity would be negatively affected. There is speculation that a schism might develop over the issue within the Roman Catholic church. There may be a renewed debate over the role of the pope's power in the church. _5,6

[RnMomof7]

<> I don't operate on the basis of feelings.

Well you sure do not operate on the word of God..so what is your foundation?

[Irisshlass]

I just heard from Jean yesterday( first time in weeks) ...his wife is not well right now so he is not around ..I will remind him..maybe he will pop in

You totally missed my point..sigh

[Desdemona]

Mom, if you read your bible, like you say you do, you should be able to answer your own questions. Luke Chapter 3: 1-22. It's a bit long to type. Even in the Catholic church this passage is referenced in the Catechism regarding the inauguration of Jesus' public life as a servant.

[Catholicguy]

I restate the church at Rome has no real spiritual authority any more...as the conversation I was in I repeat I believe the church at Rome had the keys taken out or her pocket. She is mearly a hollow "leader"

<> LMAO Exactly what the New Testament says.

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

<> Calvinist interpreting the Bible; "I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven (until such time as I shall raise up Jean Cauvin who will change Doctrine and I will gve him the keys as a reward for faithfully changing what my Catholic Church taught for 16 Centuries). <>

[Catholicguy]

<> Everything is predetermined. Don't sweat it.<>

[Matchett-PI]

"Well you sure do not operate on the word of God..so what is your foundation?"

Like the DemocRATS that you hear calling Rush who claim to have come from a "long line of DemocRATS", they are AFRAID to go against their "DemocRAT family tradition" (the foundation on which their house of cards is built). They FEAR they will be outcasts in their own family and among their friends if any one of them even happens to hear them talking to him.

But as Marx wrote, those who would rule over others must have these sorts of lazy, dependency minded "useful idiots" who don't feel comfortable unless they have someone else do their "critical thinking" for them, and tell them what to believe and what to do.

The proof of how foolish they are is the fact that they *feel* they won't be held responsible for their weak-minded decisions to depend on what others tell them if those *others* turn out to be wrong.

[Matchett-PI]

"<> Everything is predetermined. Don't sweat it.<>"

Are you a fatalist?

[Catholicguy]

<> It seems to be the Calvinist position that everything is predetermined. Even that I am predetermined to go to Hell. That dark doctrine makes of Jesus a Liar. You are welcome to it. I want no part of that Evil.

IF all had been predetermined, then one would have to conclude that Jesus established His Church, sent the Holy Spirit upon it to Teach it all truth, promised to be with His Church until the end of time but He was intentionallly Lying. He REALLY did not intend that.

No, according to the logic of Calvinism, He established His Catholic Church to spread errors and falsehoods, lies, and false Doctrine for 16 Centuries before finally raising up the great champion Calvin to set everything right.

In the meantime 100's of millions of Christians lived and died and were sent to Hell for everlasting punishment for believing the false doctrine spread by the Catholic Church that Jesus established because that was the predetermined plan of God. Serves them bastards right

Yep, it all makes perfect sense to me when I look at it that way.:)<>

<> This is your Faith. And it is the Faith that the_doc got you to accept. Do you think for a nanosecond I'd fall for such evil insanity?<>

[Irisshlass]

<>Evading another?<>

Lets be honest...the facts are, the last two posts I addressed to you were never answered...in fact I thought you ran for your life! I'm sure you can locate them in your comments section...


Proverbs 6:16-19 There are six things which the LORD hates, seven which are an abomination to him: 17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, 19 a false witness who breathes out lies, and a man who sows discord among brothers.

[Catholicguy]

Are you a fatalist?

<> Nope, Philatelist.<>

[Irisshlass]

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire

[Irisshlass]

Matthew 7:1-5 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

[Irisshlass]

1 Corinthians 13:1-6 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain
nothing. 4 Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; 5 it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.

[Irisshlass]

Titus 3:2 to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy
toward all men.

[Irisshlass]

James 4:11-12 Do not speak evil against one another, brethren. He that speaks evil against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law,
you are not a doer of the law but a judge. 12 There is one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you that you judge your neighbor?

[Catholicguy]

19 Now when it was late the same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them: Peace be to you.

20 And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.

22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained

<> Well, I do go to Confession. But, then again, I am a Catholic and so I follow Jesus, not Jean Cauvin.<>

[JesseShurun]

The hyperbole that is over the top comes from the teachings of the Baal Shem Tov, not from me. We do try to share our knowledge with you, (that's one example) but because of your spirits of unbelief, you revile, insult, and seek to silence the prophets all the day long here.

Unless you get on even ground with us by studying the Word of God, you will never be open to what it teaches. One day we'll all be gone from here,and in the deafening silence you can sit around with your little playpals and put dresses on your images of your gods and no one will rebuke you.

[Codie]

You need a refresher course on Church Unity

Did Christ found one Church?

"There is one Lord, one faith, one Baptism; one God."(Eph.34:4-6, Jn.17:21).

Is it against Christ's will for there to be division in His Church?

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all say the same thing; and that there be no dissension among you, but that you be perfectly united in one mind and in one judgment." (1 Cor. 1:10.)

[lodwick]

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[Matchett-PI]

"Proverbs 6:16-19 There are six things which the LORD hates, seven are .. . Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire":

Really? LOL!!! Don't be so hard on yourself and your friends just because you all write this kind of stuff:

To other FReepers about them and/or their beliefs:

"I owe a liar and deceiver no simple answers."
81 posted on 12/23/01 9:51 PM Pacific by proud2bRC

"A perverse and sick theology dreamed up by a prideful and demented churchman."
3 posted on 5/26/02 10:25 PM Eastern by sinkspur

"Sorry if I offend my non-Catholic, non-Orthodox brethren, but frankly I'm fed up with some of the hardened, idiotic bigots on this forum."
310 posted on 6/24/02 7:15 PM Pacific by Polycarp

"I lack giving charity to mentally challenged people."
218 posted on 10/8/02 3:11 PM Eastern by TotusTuus

"I was pinged to this thread multiple times, Jacka$$."
419 posted on 10/4/02 Eastern by Polycarp

"I don't take scripture lessons from psychopaths"
767 posted on 10/4/02 by Polycarp

"<>His "Doctrine" comes from Satan. The scorpion's egg of "You shall be like Gods" was implanted in his intellect. Calvin's Will fertislised it and the bastard child was brought forth- Calvin's Dark Doctrines - and those with itching ears, anxious for new doctrine sallied forth to worship the Mother of errors and His child.<>"
411 posted on 10/9/02 by Catholicguy