Current status of Mary [Re: Cardinal Ratzinger Does Not Foresee Approval of “Co-redemptrix”]

[Polycarp]

This is a decent summary from a non-Catholic source:

Current status of Mary:

Although the virgin Mary is rarely mentioned in the Bible, and although Protestant churches consider her to be a relatively minor biblical character, the Roman Catholic Church has long assigned her an elevated status. 

The Roman Catholic Church has historically taught two basic dogmas about Mary:

	1. Mary is the Mother of God.
	2. Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin when Yeshua (Jesus) was conceived; this state continued throughout her life.

Two additional dogmas about Mary were infallibly proclaimed by two popes during the 19^th and 20^th centuries:

	3. Immaculate Conception: Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on 1854-DEC-8. Many Roman Catholics believe that this refers to Jesus' conception circa 5 to 7 BCE. In fact, it means that Mary herself was conceived free of sin before her birth circa 20 BCE.
	4. Assumption of Mary: Pope Pius XII, in his Munificentissimus Deus (1950-NOV-1), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven." That is, she was "taken up body and soul into heaven," at the time of her death. She is there "exalted as Queen of the Universe." 1

In addition, various popes and church councils have referred to Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate:

In ancient times:

	St. Antonius (circa 250 - 350): "All graces that have ever been bestowed on men, all came through Mary."
	St. Bernard (1090 - 1153): "[Mary is called] the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her."
	St. Bonaventure (1221 - 1274): "As the moon, which stands between the sun and the earth, transmits to this latter whatever it receives from the former, so does Mary pour out upon us who are in this world the heavenly graces that she receives from the divine sun of justice." 1

1750: Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, canonized as Saint Alphonsus in 1839, wrote a book "The Glories of Mary." It continues to be published today, under various church imprimaturs. Various chapters in the book are titled: "Mary our Help," "Mary our Mediatress," "Mary our Advocate," etc. ₁

1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast. ₁

Circa 1965: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II states, in part: 

"Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...'death through Eve, life through Mary.' This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death" 2

"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix." 3

1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." ₄

1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice." ₁

1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." ₁

Although Mary has been referred to on numerous occasions as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate, none have the force of an infallible papal declaration.

Petition drive to promote an infallible statement:

Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, initiated a formal petition drive in 1993 during a Marian conference at that university. It asks the Pope to make infallible statement that would officially elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to the status of co-redeemer. More than six million signatures from 148 countries have reached the Vatican as of the end of the year 2000, asking that Pope John Paul II infallibly declare a new dogma: "That the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and co-operates fully with her son in the redemption of humanity." If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." ₃ Miravalle's petition has received support from Mother Theresa, 550 bishops, Cardinal John O'Connor and 41 other cardinals (including at least 12 cardinals in Rome). If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:

	Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption.
	Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces.
	Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments.

If the dogma is infallibly declared, many feel that, in the words of Father Rene Laurentin, it would be the equivalent of launching "bombs" at Protestants. Father Laurentin is a French monk and the world's leading Mary scholar. He believes that: "Mary is the model of our faith but she is not divine. There is no mediation or co-redemption except in Christ. He alone is God." Raising the status of Mary would further acerbate the split between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Ecumenical activity would be negatively affected. There is speculation that a schism might develop over the issue within the Roman Catholic church. There may be a renewed debate over the role of the pope's power in the church. _5,6

[Desdemona]

See post 209

[xzins]

So, are you agreeing that the process by which St Francis knows that ThomasMore is asking Francis' assistance is that God knows the prayer and then passes it on to Francis?

[ThomasMore]

I don't believe any of the Apostles had a doctorate! ;^)

[drstevej]

***Not fair, Drj.***

Mine was a question, not a statement.

[xzins]

***Not fair, Drj.*** Mine was a question, not a statement.

Shovel on the way via UPS.

[ThomasMore]

No, not at all. If Francis has any power(which I believe he has intercessory power), it is from God. God's desire to have His elect participate in His Divine Love.

Why do you ask another person to pray for you? Why do I? There are prayer threads all over this Forum. What is it that we ask people to pray for that God doesn't already know? If you contemplate the Incarnation long enough, I think you will begin to see the answer to these questions.

Why did God choose to take on flesh?

[drstevej]

Your answer is why I am not interested in this discussion.

You began by asking why He wouldn't want to protect her from all ill. I cite one ill He didn't screen her from and you suggest two reasons why He did not protect her. You answered your own question.

You argue both sides of an argument.

[xzins]

So, then, the process is that God has granted "omniscience of prayers offered to St Francis" to Francis so that Francis would know that persons were asking Francis' prayer assistance? Is that a fair way to put it? I'm just trying to nail it down.

[drstevej]

***Hit 'em straight and long.***

I hear the back nine is named after Torquemada. Either hit the ball orthodox or you wind up in some traps you'll never get out of!

:0)

[TotusTuus]

My question was this: "HOW does a saint, like Francis, for example, know about EACH of the prayers that might be prayed asking his assistance?"

Having quickly seen this question, I'll respond by saying that I don't think any of us, this side of the grave, really know. It is a mystery! Consider, how do you respond when somebody asks this same question about God?

God knows all things from all Eternity. God IS all knowledge, and all being, and all Eternity. In redeeming us, Christ makes it possible for us to share in the Divine Life of God. His Saints, people who have "fought the good fight" and have now been raised to the fullness of Life in God, undoubtedly know and do things all of us are incapable of understanding.

[xzins]

See #226 by ThomasMore. Do you agree with his explanation? Is his position the official teaching of the church?

[drstevej]

Paul had a PhD from Gamalliel U.
Luke was an MD

Just teasing...

[Irisshlass]

God cannot teach error..so anything he taught the apostles is automatically infallible..:)

[xzins]

Matthew, Luke, and John had great theses, though, didn't they? :>)

Scholars say they "passed the orals," too. Isn't that right, DrJ?

[Frumanchu]

<> Interesting perspective. Think of that from another angle. Adam was created from an uncursed Earth. Ought he have been accorded a higher priviledge than Jesus? To me, it makes sense that Jesus, the Second Adam, would be born of an uncursed Virgin. Nice symmetry, no?<>

Symmetry is no argument for doctrine, CG.

<> Essentially, that is ignorance masquerading as scholarship. The Immaculate Conception does NOT refer to how Jesus took on Human Nature.<>

The human nature of Jesus Christ is the very heart of the matter of the Immaculate Conception, CG. If not for Original Sin and its effect on ALL humanity from Adam down, the virgin birth would not be necessary. My comparison to mythology had to do with the notion of gods and mortals contributing genetically and procreatively to an offspring, usually with the result of extra-human or god-like characteristics. The Immaculate Conception is the Roman answer to the problem of Jesus being fully human without being tainted by Original Sin.

<> The Catholic Church teaches with the authority of Christ. Reject the Teachings of the Pillar and Ground of Truth and you reject Jesus.<>

And that's the heart of the debate. All debate between Catholics and Protestants over doctrine inevitably comes back to this point. The RCC claims that it is the sole representative of Christ on Earth, and that by rejecting it or its teachings you are somehow rejecting Christ Himself. We can argue about the Immaculate Conception all the live-long day, but when it comes down to it you appeal to an authority I don't recognize (the RCC, not Jesus) and the authority I appeal to (the Word of God) is only accepted by you as filtered through the RCC.

One of us needs their eyes opened. I pray that happens regardless of who it is:)

[Wrigley]

A couple of thoughts. If as a Christian I believe wholly and completely that Jesus is the Son of God who came to take my just deserved punishment, but do not believe that Mary was born without original sin, where does that leave me?

Do you believe those outside the RC church will be saved?

[theAmbassador]

Oh, no, I'm Roman Catholic. I just believe that the Archibishop of LA is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Funny! One would think that the Pope, sitting in his chair, would not make such mistakes. Now, if he really is a wolf, why hasn't the Vatican admited her mistake and removed him?

Back to my original query (we are to do what Jesus did): Did Jesus pray to Mary?

[ThomasMore]

Your use of the word "omniscience " is incorrect and therefore makes it impossible for me to answer in the vain you are questioning. "Omniscience" is proper to God alone, however, it is His omniscience that begs the question, "Is God not allowed to grant whatever He wants to His elect?"