Current status of Mary [Re: Cardinal Ratzinger Does Not Foresee Approval of “Co-redemptrix”]

[Polycarp]

This is a decent summary from a non-Catholic source:

Current status of Mary:

Although the virgin Mary is rarely mentioned in the Bible, and although Protestant churches consider her to be a relatively minor biblical character, the Roman Catholic Church has long assigned her an elevated status. 

The Roman Catholic Church has historically taught two basic dogmas about Mary:

	1. Mary is the Mother of God.
	2. Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin when Yeshua (Jesus) was conceived; this state continued throughout her life.

Two additional dogmas about Mary were infallibly proclaimed by two popes during the 19^th and 20^th centuries:

	3. Immaculate Conception: Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on 1854-DEC-8. Many Roman Catholics believe that this refers to Jesus' conception circa 5 to 7 BCE. In fact, it means that Mary herself was conceived free of sin before her birth circa 20 BCE.
	4. Assumption of Mary: Pope Pius XII, in his Munificentissimus Deus (1950-NOV-1), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven." That is, she was "taken up body and soul into heaven," at the time of her death. She is there "exalted as Queen of the Universe." 1

In addition, various popes and church councils have referred to Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate:

In ancient times:

	St. Antonius (circa 250 - 350): "All graces that have ever been bestowed on men, all came through Mary."
	St. Bernard (1090 - 1153): "[Mary is called] the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her."
	St. Bonaventure (1221 - 1274): "As the moon, which stands between the sun and the earth, transmits to this latter whatever it receives from the former, so does Mary pour out upon us who are in this world the heavenly graces that she receives from the divine sun of justice." 1

1750: Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, canonized as Saint Alphonsus in 1839, wrote a book "The Glories of Mary." It continues to be published today, under various church imprimaturs. Various chapters in the book are titled: "Mary our Help," "Mary our Mediatress," "Mary our Advocate," etc. ₁

1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast. ₁

Circa 1965: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II states, in part: 

"Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...'death through Eve, life through Mary.' This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death" 2

"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix." 3

1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." ₄

1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice." ₁

1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." ₁

Although Mary has been referred to on numerous occasions as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate, none have the force of an infallible papal declaration.

Petition drive to promote an infallible statement:

Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, initiated a formal petition drive in 1993 during a Marian conference at that university. It asks the Pope to make infallible statement that would officially elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to the status of co-redeemer. More than six million signatures from 148 countries have reached the Vatican as of the end of the year 2000, asking that Pope John Paul II infallibly declare a new dogma: "That the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and co-operates fully with her son in the redemption of humanity." If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." ₃ Miravalle's petition has received support from Mother Theresa, 550 bishops, Cardinal John O'Connor and 41 other cardinals (including at least 12 cardinals in Rome). If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:

	Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption.
	Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces.
	Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments.

If the dogma is infallibly declared, many feel that, in the words of Father Rene Laurentin, it would be the equivalent of launching "bombs" at Protestants. Father Laurentin is a French monk and the world's leading Mary scholar. He believes that: "Mary is the model of our faith but she is not divine. There is no mediation or co-redemption except in Christ. He alone is God." Raising the status of Mary would further acerbate the split between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Ecumenical activity would be negatively affected. There is speculation that a schism might develop over the issue within the Roman Catholic church. There may be a renewed debate over the role of the pope's power in the church. _5,6

[Gophack]

I don't think you completely understand the concept of Immaculate Conception. It has nothing to do with God coming down and having sex with humans. Through an act of grace, God preserved Mary from original sin at her conception.

If you can believe that God placed a fertilized embryo in Mary's womb without using any of her genetic material, why can't you believe that God preserved Mary from original sin?

God bless.

[Matchett-PI]

TM: "they're just unchristian!"

Who -- these people?:

To Matchett-PI:

"Your other person in the garden should have had some B*lls."

302 posted on 10/4/02 by sandyeggo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 302 | View Replies |
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/761987/posts?page=302#302

To Matchett-PI:

"I was pinged to this thread multiple times, Jacka$$."

419 posted on 10/4/02 by Polycarp
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/761987/posts?page=419#419

[xzins]

The difficulty in that is this:

What if every Christian in the world prayed today to St Francis? Would St Francis be able to comprehend those prayers from billions?

It assumes a level of omniscience on the part of a saint that is normally reserved for God. Therefore, you must come up with a teaching on how St Francis comes to know about all these prayers.

If he does it through his own abilities, then he is omniscient.

If he gets it passed from God, then you must wonder why God already knows the request but requires St Francis to remind Him.

I say this politely. My intent is to point out a weakness in the position.

[CCWoody]

OK, so what are the 42 fields?

[Polycarp]

Sorry, thought this thread could use a humor break...

[xzins]

Xzins, are you walking down Scott Hahn's path to Rome?

Not fair, Drj. It would be as fair as my saying, "Scot Hahn was a calvinist, a Presbyterian, possessor of a doctoral degree in calvinism, and a graduate of a great Calvinist Seminary, Gordon-Conwell." I didn't say that because it ignores so many things.

[Polycarp]

No, they're just unchristian!

Apparently you are mistaken. Calling a bigot a "jacka$$" is unchristian.

But calling Mary mother of Jesus the "Queen of Hell" is Christian.

Please do not post to this thread if you cannot keep up to these high Christian ideals.

[Desdemona]

Does the dogma of the Immaculate Conception or any other church teaching state whether Mary ever sinned in her life?

THe Catechism states:

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (panagia) and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned be the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature." By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

Re the Immaculate Conception (Mary, herself, being conceived, NOT Christ conceived within her):

The Immaculate Conception

490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role." The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace." In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary tthat she be wholly borne by God's grace.

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: "The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace an privilege of almighty GOd and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the Human Race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin."

492 The "splendor of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary if "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son." The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love."

[ThomasMore]

Xzins, are you walking down Scott Hahn's path to Rome?

That would be a wise path!

[Irisshlass]

The Word is infallible.

Then where is sola scriptura in the Bible?

[xzins]

That would be a wise path!

Scott had a doctorate. I'm not smart enough.

[Matchett-PI]

"Please do not post to this thread if you cannot keep up to these high Christian ideals."

Careful!!! I save the best of your "Christian comments" for last! LOL

[Matchett-PI]

"Then where is sola scriptura in the Bible? "

It is the Bible.

The WORD (Jesus) only is infallible.

Those without "the spirit" (the mind of Christ) don't understand spiritual things --- they are foolishness to them.

And as an aside --- "the spirit" who allows you to understand the things of God ---- does NOT live in Rome. LOL

[Gophack]

I think we agree that when if we make it to Heaven, we spend our eternity in total bliss and happiness, praising and worshipping God.

We agree that the Angels are spirits created by God (unlike Adam and Eve, they have no physical bodies). Angels can basically go anywhere and do anything, but they can not "read minds" so to speak; they do not know what is in our hearts. Only God does. That is why the fallen angels -- (angels, like Adam and Eve, were created with free will to accept or reject God) -- in particular Lucifer (Satan) can not read our mind and know our heart. Satan understands human nature like an expert shrink -- he tempts and thwarts in order to cause people to fall from grace, to sin against God. But He can't MAKE someone sin -- we CHOOSE to win, and Satan knows how to tempt humans. As St. Paul said, "12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live. 14 For whosoever are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Romans 8:12-14)

OK, I'm assuming that we're still on the same page. If we die in a state of Grace (saved), we go to heaven. We become saints. As saints, we praise and worship God.

If a saint is praying in heaven, why can't he pray for those still on earth? When you go to heaven, to you forget your loved ones? Your friends? Your neighbors? Couldn't a saint pray to God for the conversion of a sinful friend?

Catholics pray directly to God. We also ask the saints to pray for us. So really, we're praying to God and the saints are praying for us, and if the prayer is something the God wishes to grant us, He will.

I suppose one DOESN'T have to ask the saints to pray for us, but there is absolutely no harm. And I believe strongly in the power of prayer. When a group of people get together to pray for someone who is sick, or going through difficult times, I believe that God really listens -- we're praying for our neighbor and showing the love we are commanded to demonstrate as Christians, and I think that God blesses that.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:

956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."[493] Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.[494] I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.[495]

God bless.

[Polycarp]

I save the best of your "Christian comments" for last!

Oh please share them! I'm very flattered you bothered to save them.

[xzins]

It's a good explanation of what you believe, but it didn't answer my specific question. I understand how a deceased person who has gone on to be with God can pray for his loved ones. I understand how he can in general pray for everyone.

My question was this: "HOW does a saint, like Francis, for example, know about EACH of the prayers that might be prayed asking his assistance?" What I am trying to get at is this: what is the process by which Francis would come to know that GopHack was asking for Francis' assistance?

[TotusTuus]

People must, since you believe that Mary was born without Original Sin.

Yes, I do. I do believe that Mary is the Immaculate Conception. This, by the Gift of Faith, a supernatural Grace of God; I believe everything that God has revealed to us through the Church He founded. If I didn't believe it, I suppose I would be an "ex-Catholic", even a non-Christian.

I know people like that. People who cannot say with certainty that they believe that Jesus Christ is the true Son of God, and therefore cannot call themselves Catholic anymore. I still can say I respect them for their honesty. I still will give them correct information when they have misunderstood this or that teaching. I still pray for them, always with Hope that God will lead them back to the fullness of His Truth, which is found in His One, Holy, Apostolic, and Catholic Church.

The original post I responded to, however, seemed to have come from a flat out bigot. It did not provide helpful information for people to learn from, to help guide them in growing in their Faith. It did not even provide the usual disagreements of Biblical interpretation which continuously go around and around in circles. It was utterly useless, and INCORRECT "history", devised and invented as an attempt to falsely trash the Catholic Church. Either the poster should have known this, or perhaps I lack giving charity to mentally challenged people.

You don't buy that crap, do you? I can understand that many on this thread from a fundamentalist Protestant background don't accept the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, thinking it is "not in the Bible". These are, after all, matters of Faith. I would never think of trying to force someone to believe in Christ Himself - since He wouldn't either. But turning to lies to "win" an argument? C'mon, not only is it immature, worse, it is something to expect from democrats! One would hope that humble rational discourse with charitable intentions led by the Grace of God working in all of us would be given reign so that all would be able to continually grow in knowledge of the Infinite God and His plans.

That crap was pure anti-Catholic bigotry with no basis in reality. It contains half-truths and distortions galore for no other reason than to smear the Church - and NOT to help people grow in Truth. MatchettPI embarrassed himself by publishing that on the world-wide-web for all to see. Being anti-Catholic is one thing, being so idiotic by referencing such trash is another. I'm not angry with him, I feel sorry for him. (I will pray for him)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You got mail

BigMack

[ThomasMore]

If he does it through his own abilities, then he is omniscient.

You assume or imply that it is a saint's own abilities. The Church has never declared such a thing. If in the Kingdom we will "be like Him" it is only because of His Omnipotent Love and Generosity. We won't be infinite like God, but "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man." You doubt God's power to endow His elect with whatever pleases Him?

If he gets it passed from God, then you must wonder why God already knows the request but requires St Francis to remind Him.

Why should I wonder? We can add nothing to God! Yet, in all His Being, He saw it Good to create. True pleasure is derived from good. If God is the GOOD, God must derive pleasure, in this case from His creation. i.e. when Paul said to the Galatians, "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, ...."

No, God doesn't REQUIRE his reminding! That's foolish! God created us in His image and likeness. God only knows why he wants us to participate in His divine life for all eternity.