Current status of Mary [Re: Cardinal Ratzinger Does Not Foresee Approval of “Co-redemptrix”]

[Desdemona]

See post 209

[xzins]

So, are you agreeing that the process by which St Francis knows that ThomasMore is asking Francis' assistance is that God knows the prayer and then passes it on to Francis?

[ThomasMore]

I don't believe any of the Apostles had a doctorate! ;^)

[drstevej]

***Not fair, Drj.***

Mine was a question, not a statement.

[xzins]

***Not fair, Drj.*** Mine was a question, not a statement.

Shovel on the way via UPS.

[ThomasMore]

No, not at all. If Francis has any power(which I believe he has intercessory power), it is from God. God's desire to have His elect participate in His Divine Love.

Why do you ask another person to pray for you? Why do I? There are prayer threads all over this Forum. What is it that we ask people to pray for that God doesn't already know? If you contemplate the Incarnation long enough, I think you will begin to see the answer to these questions.

Why did God choose to take on flesh?

[drstevej]

Your answer is why I am not interested in this discussion.

You began by asking why He wouldn't want to protect her from all ill. I cite one ill He didn't screen her from and you suggest two reasons why He did not protect her. You answered your own question.

You argue both sides of an argument.

[xzins]

So, then, the process is that God has granted "omniscience of prayers offered to St Francis" to Francis so that Francis would know that persons were asking Francis' prayer assistance? Is that a fair way to put it? I'm just trying to nail it down.

[drstevej]

***Hit 'em straight and long.***

I hear the back nine is named after Torquemada. Either hit the ball orthodox or you wind up in some traps you'll never get out of!

:0)

[TotusTuus]

My question was this: "HOW does a saint, like Francis, for example, know about EACH of the prayers that might be prayed asking his assistance?"

Having quickly seen this question, I'll respond by saying that I don't think any of us, this side of the grave, really know. It is a mystery! Consider, how do you respond when somebody asks this same question about God?

God knows all things from all Eternity. God IS all knowledge, and all being, and all Eternity. In redeeming us, Christ makes it possible for us to share in the Divine Life of God. His Saints, people who have "fought the good fight" and have now been raised to the fullness of Life in God, undoubtedly know and do things all of us are incapable of understanding.

[xzins]

See #226 by ThomasMore. Do you agree with his explanation? Is his position the official teaching of the church?

[drstevej]

Paul had a PhD from Gamalliel U.
Luke was an MD

Just teasing...

[Irisshlass]

God cannot teach error..so anything he taught the apostles is automatically infallible..:)

[xzins]

Matthew, Luke, and John had great theses, though, didn't they? :>)

Scholars say they "passed the orals," too. Isn't that right, DrJ?

[Frumanchu]

<> Interesting perspective. Think of that from another angle. Adam was created from an uncursed Earth. Ought he have been accorded a higher priviledge than Jesus? To me, it makes sense that Jesus, the Second Adam, would be born of an uncursed Virgin. Nice symmetry, no?<>

Symmetry is no argument for doctrine, CG.

<> Essentially, that is ignorance masquerading as scholarship. The Immaculate Conception does NOT refer to how Jesus took on Human Nature.<>

The human nature of Jesus Christ is the very heart of the matter of the Immaculate Conception, CG. If not for Original Sin and its effect on ALL humanity from Adam down, the virgin birth would not be necessary. My comparison to mythology had to do with the notion of gods and mortals contributing genetically and procreatively to an offspring, usually with the result of extra-human or god-like characteristics. The Immaculate Conception is the Roman answer to the problem of Jesus being fully human without being tainted by Original Sin.

<> The Catholic Church teaches with the authority of Christ. Reject the Teachings of the Pillar and Ground of Truth and you reject Jesus.<>

And that's the heart of the debate. All debate between Catholics and Protestants over doctrine inevitably comes back to this point. The RCC claims that it is the sole representative of Christ on Earth, and that by rejecting it or its teachings you are somehow rejecting Christ Himself. We can argue about the Immaculate Conception all the live-long day, but when it comes down to it you appeal to an authority I don't recognize (the RCC, not Jesus) and the authority I appeal to (the Word of God) is only accepted by you as filtered through the RCC.

One of us needs their eyes opened. I pray that happens regardless of who it is:)

[Wrigley]

A couple of thoughts. If as a Christian I believe wholly and completely that Jesus is the Son of God who came to take my just deserved punishment, but do not believe that Mary was born without original sin, where does that leave me?

Do you believe those outside the RC church will be saved?

[theAmbassador]

Oh, no, I'm Roman Catholic. I just believe that the Archibishop of LA is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Funny! One would think that the Pope, sitting in his chair, would not make such mistakes. Now, if he really is a wolf, why hasn't the Vatican admited her mistake and removed him?

Back to my original query (we are to do what Jesus did): Did Jesus pray to Mary?

[ThomasMore]

Your use of the word "omniscience " is incorrect and therefore makes it impossible for me to answer in the vain you are questioning. "Omniscience" is proper to God alone, however, it is His omniscience that begs the question, "Is God not allowed to grant whatever He wants to His elect?"