Press the smilie face, Cube.
Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
The most difficult question in the bible for me is this: Was the script for everyone and everything pre-planned, pre-written so that the screenwriter never allowed for any deviation or change to the script, such that absolutely nothing could ever be changed?"
I value honorable Christians who answer yes, who answer no, and who have an answer somewhere in between. In my family, I have sincere family members who are Christians on either side of that question.
Personally, I don't think the script is pre-written so it could never be changed.
Can you name one thing that God could not have changed?
No, I can't. I also can't see how your response relates to my statements.
Do you ever pray for sick people?
SD
In the Catholic case there are teachings, like the Real Presence, that are written down and known by those in the know to be authentic Catholic teachings.
Then there are people who, for a variety of reasons, are ignorant of the true teaching.
So, yes, this is a form of confusion. But is it clear which teaching is the correct one? Yes. Read the Catechism.
Now contrast that with the free-wheeling world of Sola Scriptura Christianity. Your dear husband and Woody have had a disagreement about the meaning of a Scripture passage. Now to draw a parallel, which one is the "pope" and which one is the ignorant person?
Is Mack right and Woody is ignorant? Or is Woody right and Mack ignorant? Is it clear which teaching is the "correct" one?
No. Confusion reigns.
SD
You have framed the question well. Good job.
How about this for an answer? This question, about which endless bickering ensues, is framed from our point of view, not from that of God's. The answer is not one or the other, but a curious and mystical mixture of both.
Regardless, we do not have a copy of the script, so we can not know if our present actions are rehearsed or ad lib. They certainly feel ad lib, and there are ample warnings about the consequences of our decisions. We can not turn to the Cartoonist, like Jessica Rabbit, and say "I'm not really bad, I'm just drawn that way."
SD
That is a great line. Thanks. Is it in "Roger Rabbit?"
You betcha.
SD
Way to go RF..How bout it mack?
Everyone who is saved is saved by what Jesus did on the cross. That is where all sins can be forgiven, because that is where the price was paid for them.
Now I have answered, what is the significance of the question?
Becky
Press the smilie face, Cube.
You wroteActually we believe that man is dead from the fall. We believe not that he has enough spiritual life left to desire God, but that the Lord enlivens him to see the choice before him
I see DEAD is not Dead..So how did I misstate that? Cause you position is just plain silly...Was Lazaresus only a 'little dead"? What is a "little "dead
So then everyone IS saved right Becky? God desired and predestined everyone to be saved so every one IS saved. Are you a Univeralist?
You said that I believe man is not dead in his sins. However, I do believe man is dead in his sins.
Now, are you going to tell me what I believe? I just told you what I believe.
Now, what part of man is dead? It clearly isn't his body that we are talking about. What part are we talking about?
2 Peter 3:9: God is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
BUT: "any" or "all" of what? Dogs? Chickens? There must be an antecedent to the pronouns.
In 3:3-7, Peter is discussing "them" (i.e. unbelievers). In verse 8 he addresses the "beloved." The beloved are those to whom the epistle is addressed, "those who have obtained a like precious faith with us" (1:1). Thus, God is not will willing that any of the BELOVED should perish. And, since God gets everything He wants, this verse becomes a proof-text for eternal security. Moreover, the context of this passage is when the end of the world will come (3:7,10). Peter is teaching that God will wait until "all" have a chance to repent. If "all" refers to everyone who has lived or will live, then the world would never end as new people are being born all the time! But if the reference is to all of God’s people, then the world will end when the last of the elect (a large but finite number) has repented and believed.
But... aren't some of the 'elect' ALSO 'being born all the time!' ??
NIV 2 Peter 3:9 Looks like he's warning these 'brothers' that their 'election' AIN'T 'eternally secure' here.
NIV 2 Peter 1:10-11
10. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
11. and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
9. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
So then these are not Gods plans . God waited to see how man would act and how man would choose THEN he made HIS plans? Who is God in this ?
Becky every man does have free will...but man will never will to choose God..Read Romans
"So then 'FAITH' cometh by hearing, and hearing 'BY' The WORD of GOD."
(Romans 10:17)
OK, I'll concede the literal point! But I still maintain that the witness of the good works of Christians is as important a part of evangelizing as is the preaching that they do.
Becky
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